Question for Bob Hill: Rewards
- Thread starter Sozo
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lightninboy
Member
Jesus Is Coming Again
The reference to casting crowns at the feet of the Lord is based on an improper understanding of Rev 4:9-11.
Commonly the reference to crown casting is understood to mean that at the Judgment Seat of Christ believers will give back the crowns they receive. They will place them at the feet of Jesus, before His throne. These crowns, representing all rewards given, will return to their rightful owner. Thus no believer will have any more glory, honor, or power in the millennial or eternal kingdom than any other believer will.
Clearly from many passages (e.g., Matt 6:19-21; 2 Tim 2:12; Rev 2:17, 26) some believers will have treasure, rulership, and other rewards, and some will not. The crown casting of Rev 4:9-11 does not change that.
The reference to casting crowns at the feet of the Lord is based on an improper understanding of Rev 4:9-11.
Commonly the reference to crown casting is understood to mean that at the Judgment Seat of Christ believers will give back the crowns they receive. They will place them at the feet of Jesus, before His throne. These crowns, representing all rewards given, will return to their rightful owner. Thus no believer will have any more glory, honor, or power in the millennial or eternal kingdom than any other believer will.
Clearly from many passages (e.g., Matt 6:19-21; 2 Tim 2:12; Rev 2:17, 26) some believers will have treasure, rulership, and other rewards, and some will not. The crown casting of Rev 4:9-11 does not change that.
lightninboy
Member
Mine came from GES and hers came from Campus Crusade.
lightninboy
Member
We've got lots of verses defending rewards.
What verses defend your view?
You mean you've debated against GES and Campus Crusade for years?
What verses defend your view?
You mean you've debated against GES and Campus Crusade for years?
Silk Queen
New member
The rewards is doing Jesus will, I would like rewards to present to HIM but if I make it to heaven that will be a nice reward.
lightninboy
Member
How you live on earth affects your state for eternity.
Millard J. Erickson said so in Christian Theology
Matthew 6:19-24.
Minute by minute
You live and new choices are made
Building eternity
Every stone will be laid
Millard J. Erickson said so in Christian Theology
Matthew 6:19-24.
Minute by minute
You live and new choices are made
Building eternity
Every stone will be laid
Silk Queen
New member
Yes faith without works is dead.lightninboy said:
lightninboy
Member
First Corinthians 9:24-27
Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.
Philippians 3:11, 14
If, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection of the dead… I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
If the prize in those verses isn't salvation to be attained, it is obviously exactly a prize!
When I race, I race for a prize.
Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.
Philippians 3:11, 14
If, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection of the dead… I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
If the prize in those verses isn't salvation to be attained, it is obviously exactly a prize!
When I race, I race for a prize.
Sozo
New member
Paul is giving an illustration about not doing something in vain. He talks about giving every effort to win men's souls. The prize is winning men's souls. He becomes all things to all men that he may win some. He doesn't box as if he is beating the air, but gives all of his effort to win.
lightninboy
Member
If there will be equality in heaven, then the whole doctrine of rewards would mean absolutely nothing and it would be utterly stupid for Paul to say "I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others I myself should become disqualified" (1 Cor 9:27).
The Scripture is loaded with this teaching and how we keep missing it I can’t understand. For example, Luke 19:12-27. Matthew 25:14-30. In the final analysis, the test is faithfulness to what I was given. It isn’t the athlete that runs the fastest, but the one who keeps the rules and finishes the race (see 2 Tim 2:5; 4:7-8).
God puts that in another picture and I want to take you to this one more picture in Revelation 19. In verses 7-8, we have a beautiful scene. Now you ask yourself, what is this fine linen? What is this picture? What is this wardrobe he’s talking about here? Well, you don’t have to look very far; he explains it. The next phrase reads, "For the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints." The righteousnesses of the saints are the righteous acts the saints have done since they’ve been declared righteous. We are today building our wardrobe that we shall wear in the life to come.
The Scripture is loaded with this teaching and how we keep missing it I can’t understand. For example, Luke 19:12-27. Matthew 25:14-30. In the final analysis, the test is faithfulness to what I was given. It isn’t the athlete that runs the fastest, but the one who keeps the rules and finishes the race (see 2 Tim 2:5; 4:7-8).
God puts that in another picture and I want to take you to this one more picture in Revelation 19. In verses 7-8, we have a beautiful scene. Now you ask yourself, what is this fine linen? What is this picture? What is this wardrobe he’s talking about here? Well, you don’t have to look very far; he explains it. The next phrase reads, "For the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints." The righteousnesses of the saints are the righteous acts the saints have done since they’ve been declared righteous. We are today building our wardrobe that we shall wear in the life to come.
Sozo
New member
Wow, you really are a moron.lightninboy said:
"What then is my reward? That, when I preach the gospel, I may offer the gospel without charge , so as not to make full use of my right in the gospel. For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, that I might win the more. And to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law, though not being myself under the Law, that I might win those who are under the Law; to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, that I might win those who are without law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, that I may by all means save some. And I do all things for the sake of the gospel, that I may become a fellow partaker of it. Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. And everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; but I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest possibly, after I have preached to others, I myself should be disqualified."
You have a perverted view of your purpose.
lightninboy
Member
How beautiful the radient Bride
who waits for her Groom
with His light in her eyes.
How beautiful when humble hearts give
the fruit of pure lives
so that others may live.
How beautiful
how beautiful
how beautiful is the body of Christ.
who waits for her Groom
with His light in her eyes.
How beautiful when humble hearts give
the fruit of pure lives
so that others may live.
How beautiful
how beautiful
how beautiful is the body of Christ.
lightninboy
Member
Millennial-only Rewards? After the Millennium, all believers revert to an equal position?
That position does not square with many passages of Scripture:
Matthew 6:19-21 Treasure in heaven is not temporary like earthly treasure. Even if treasure lasted for 1000 years (Methusaleh had 969 years of earthly treasure), it would be temporary.
Peter speaks of a rich entrance to "the eternal kingdom" in 2 Peter 1:11. Clearly that includes both the Millennium and the kingdom on the new earth afterwards. The millennial kingdom is the first 1000 years of the eternal kingdom (Daniel's 5th kingdom. That rich entrance lasts forever.
Revelation 3:21. Jesus will sit on His father's throne and rule forever. So those who rule with him will rule forever.
Revelation 22:14. These rewards are on the new earth in the eternal kingdom. They are forever.
Daniel 12:3. This shining glory will last forever.
Hebrews 11. The OT saints mentioned were seeking eternal rewards, not rewards that lasted 1000 years. The better resurrection of 11:35 is clearly a better experience of the resurrection life. All believers will be in the kingdom forever. All will not have the most abundant experience.
This is why eternal rewards are so important. Because they are indeed eternal. If we squander opportunities now, we will experience less forever than we could have.
We should all seek to glorify Christ as fully as we can now so that we can glorify Him as fully as we can forever.
That position does not square with many passages of Scripture:
Matthew 6:19-21 Treasure in heaven is not temporary like earthly treasure. Even if treasure lasted for 1000 years (Methusaleh had 969 years of earthly treasure), it would be temporary.
Peter speaks of a rich entrance to "the eternal kingdom" in 2 Peter 1:11. Clearly that includes both the Millennium and the kingdom on the new earth afterwards. The millennial kingdom is the first 1000 years of the eternal kingdom (Daniel's 5th kingdom. That rich entrance lasts forever.
Revelation 3:21. Jesus will sit on His father's throne and rule forever. So those who rule with him will rule forever.
Revelation 22:14. These rewards are on the new earth in the eternal kingdom. They are forever.
Daniel 12:3. This shining glory will last forever.
Hebrews 11. The OT saints mentioned were seeking eternal rewards, not rewards that lasted 1000 years. The better resurrection of 11:35 is clearly a better experience of the resurrection life. All believers will be in the kingdom forever. All will not have the most abundant experience.
This is why eternal rewards are so important. Because they are indeed eternal. If we squander opportunities now, we will experience less forever than we could have.
We should all seek to glorify Christ as fully as we can now so that we can glorify Him as fully as we can forever.
lightninboy
Member
Thomas R. Schreiner and Ardel B. Caneday, The Race Set Before Us: A Biblical Theology of Perseverance & Assurance (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 2001.
Loss-of-salvation view. They say, “The racetrack represents salvation. Christians may abandon the race and lose salvation. The prize is eternal life. This is Arminianism.
Loss-of-rewards view. “The racetrack represents salvation. Christians may abandon the race and lose rewards. The prize is not salvation but rewards. This is the Free Grace position. The authors cite Grace Evangelical Society, Zane Hodges, The New Scofield Reference Bible, R. T. Kendall, Charles Stanley, Erwin Lutzer, Michael Eaton, John Hart, and me as advocating this position.
Tests-of-genuineness view. The authors say that this is “one of the most common views in evangelicalism today. The racetrack represents salvation. To abandon the race proves one was never saved. Christians run with their back toward the goal to assess their progress on the track. The prize is salvation, eternal life. Warnings and admonitions call for retrospective and introspective self-examination to assess whether one is already saved. This is the traditional Reformed view, also known as Lordship Salvation.
Loss-of-salvation view. They say, “The racetrack represents salvation. Christians may abandon the race and lose salvation. The prize is eternal life. This is Arminianism.
Loss-of-rewards view. “The racetrack represents salvation. Christians may abandon the race and lose rewards. The prize is not salvation but rewards. This is the Free Grace position. The authors cite Grace Evangelical Society, Zane Hodges, The New Scofield Reference Bible, R. T. Kendall, Charles Stanley, Erwin Lutzer, Michael Eaton, John Hart, and me as advocating this position.
Tests-of-genuineness view. The authors say that this is “one of the most common views in evangelicalism today. The racetrack represents salvation. To abandon the race proves one was never saved. Christians run with their back toward the goal to assess their progress on the track. The prize is salvation, eternal life. Warnings and admonitions call for retrospective and introspective self-examination to assess whether one is already saved. This is the traditional Reformed view, also known as Lordship Salvation.
Sozo said:
I Cor. 3; 2 Cor. 5.....I did not read Silk's article, but it merits refutation from you.
Faith vs unbelief determines destiny (heaven or hell).
Works/stewardship determines degrees of rewards or responsibilities (sins determines degree of punishment for unbelievers...a good Mormon and Hitler end up in hell, but not with the identical degree of punishment that Satan has...Tartarus is different than Sheol, for example).
The Bema Judgment Seat of Christ is for believers. It is a judgment of works, not sins, since our sins were judged at the cross. The Great White Throne judgment also mentions works and is mostly unbelievers (and some millennium saints who will not go to the lake of fire). There unbelief damns them, but works are also considered...
We all must give an account for our lives (time, talents, treasures= stewardship, not salvation), even though our sins are covered.
Sozo
New member
Belivers have already been judged, godrulz. You need to read a bible.
Teaching rewards (other than what I mentioned), is unbiblical and blasphemous.
Your heart is filled with your own righteousness. You will be disappointed when they only thing you receive from Jesus are the words that He never knew you.
YOU have absolutely ZERO biblical evidence of there being rewards in heaven, other than those given to those who are in Christ and are because of His works, not yours.
You are a false teacher.
Teaching rewards (other than what I mentioned), is unbiblical and blasphemous.
Your heart is filled with your own righteousness. You will be disappointed when they only thing you receive from Jesus are the words that He never knew you.
YOU have absolutely ZERO biblical evidence of there being rewards in heaven, other than those given to those who are in Christ and are because of His works, not yours.
You are a false teacher.