Question for Bob Hill: Rewards

Benjamin

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Banned
OSAS is the result of a great and sinister confusion which results in damage to the Gospel.

Romans 8:14
For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
 

Benjamin

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Banned
Now let me ask....WHO ARE SONS OF THE LIVING GOD LADIES AND GENTLEMAN? (please read Romans 8:14 in the above post) Is it those with empty confession or those who walk in the Spirit? Have you NEVER READ MATTHEW 25? 10 virgins, 5 RAN OUT OF OIL AND DID NOT GET IN. Please recognize they had oil but refused to "continue" in the Gospel (1 Cor 15:1-2) and refused to stay continually "full of the Spirit" (Ephesians 5:18).

Now I ask very demandingly, WHAT IS INERRANT? The Word of God or the teaching of OSAS?...because they absolutely cannot both be. (I recommend siding with the inerrant Word which will judge all- even Ehrman and every other critic).
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Benjamin said:
God suggests that I show immense respect to Him, and rebuke those who twist the Word. You run along and have a fun respecting men and their dangerous hell widening teachings. :)

I disagree with his Mid-Acts dispensationalism, but this is hardly a spiritually fatal heresy. Pastor Hill is a man of God who affirms the same essentials of the faith that you and I do. OSAS is not a salvific issue generally. I agree that it is unbiblical and is only problematic if we give unbelievers false assurance that the Spirit and Word do not. For those who believe and continue to trust and love Jesus, it is not an issue unless used as a license for sin. For the most part, it is an academic discussion that may or may not have practical ramifications.

Until you can find fault with his Christology or soteriology, you are being a presumptious young punk...zeal without wisdom or knowledge.
 

Benjamin

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Banned
godrulz said:
I disagree with his Mid-Acts dispensationalism, but this is hardly a spiritually fatal heresy. Pastor Hill is a man of God who affirms the same essentials of the faith that you and I do. OSAS is not a salvific issue generally. I agree that it is unbiblical and is only problematic if we give unbelievers false assurance that the Spirit and Word do not. For those who believe and continue to trust and love Jesus, it is not an issue unless used as a license for sin. For the most part, it is an academic discussion that may or may not have practical ramifications.

Until you can find fault with his Christology or soteriology, you are being a presumptious young punk...zeal without wisdom or knowledge.

Anytime you want to come street preaching with me- just let me know.

"The righteous are as bold as a lion". Take care. :)

Meanwhile I will continue to rebuke and exhort with all longsuffering- because I love God's Word.
 

Sozo

New member
Bob Hill said:
I've forgotten about this thread, but now I'm back.

I believe in a strong emphasis on getting what I believe from the Bible.

Others say they do too. But, all of the different beliefs tell me that some people are very perplexed.

I think one of the greatest problems is the emphasis that many teach on baptism.

It’s also getting to be a majority position in the world of Christianity that health and prosperity teachings are what God wants. They say God wants us healthy & wealthy. Yet, even with all those big churches making it their theology, it doesn’t happen. Why?

Many don’t understand why God doesn’t answer their prayers like He promised He would.

Some are not really sure what they have to do to be saved. And others are not completely sure that you cannot lose your salvation.

Some are puzzled about tongues, the other sign gifts, and prophecy.

Are these gifts for today? If I didn’t see things dispensationally, I would have to believe in those gifts being in order for us today, yet I know you don’t.

Others are concerned about this – will we go through the tribulation or be taken out of here before it begins?

I feel a great burden for many believers who have bad theology. I admire many on this thread who seem to want to know the word of God. But, there is so much confusion about what the Bible really teaches, and I believe it’s because many do not look at God’s word according to the dispensations He shows us in His word.

Gross error is not only being presented in many churches in our land as truth, but truth almost seems to be despised by some churches.

I believe we can know the truth if we study God’s word to see what it really says. That’s why I believe all of these problems I’ve mentioned can be solved when we look at the great distinctions God makes in His Word.

God’s program for us today, in the Dispensation of Grace, is different from all His previous programs and future programs.

We see how unique God’s program for us is when we read about Paul’s commission in Eph 3:1-9: “For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles – 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gracious gift of God given to me by the effective working of His power. 8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the untraceable riches of Christ, 9 and make all see what is the dispensation (oikonomia) of the mystery, which has been hidden from the ages in God who created all things through Jesus Christ.”

God inspired Paul to repeat this explanation in Col 1:25-27: [The church]of which I became a minister according to the dispensation of God which was given to me for you, to fulfill [to complete, make full, fill] the word of God, 26 the mystery which has been hidden from the ages and from the generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. 27 To whom God willed to make known what are the glorious riches of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ among you, the hope of glory.

This means that prophecies made before Paul was saved, from Genesis to Acts nine, have nothing to do with this dispensation. Why? Because this dispensation is called the Dispensation of the Mystery in Eph 3:8,9 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the dispensation of the mystery, which has been hidden from the ages in God who created all things through Jesus Christ.

Rom 16:25,26 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret in age times 26 but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith.

It also means that nothing was known about the church which is the body of Christ before it was revealed to the Apostle Paul.

Why? Because it is a mystery – a secret.

Things changed drastically when the dispensation of grace/mystery started.

Here are the big differences in this Dispensation of Grace.
Salvation. We are justified by faith. Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

The Circumcision Gospel was different from our present Dispensation of Grace.
They were justified by faith plus works.
Jam 2:11,12,14,20,21,24,25 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

Security.
We are sealed and secure.
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise.
Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed unto the day of redemption.

They have to endure.
Mat 24:9-14 Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
John 15:1-12 I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone [of the eleven apostles] does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

Baptism.
We don’t have to be water baptized to be saved.
Acts 16:30,31 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
1 Co 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.

They had to be baptized.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
1 Pe 3:19-21 [Christ] went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us – baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The purpose of the mystery.
Is love.
1 Ti 1:3-5 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia - remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine, 4 nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith. 5 Now the purpose of the commandment charge is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith.
2 Ti 1:12-14 I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep my deposit until that Day. 13 Hold fast the pattern of sound words which you have heard from me, in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.14 Keep that good thing which was committed to you the good deposit, keep by the Holy Spirit who dwells in us.

The big difference is life changing and shows us in this dispensation, salvation is all of grace and our belief.

In Christ,
Bob Hill


Good information, Bob, but what does this have to do with this thread? :idunno:
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Benjamin said:
Anytime you want to come street preaching with me- just let me know.

"The righteous are as bold as a lion". Take care. :)

Meanwhile I will continue to rebuke and exhort with all longsuffering- because I love God's Word.


Boldness should not be crass, but tempered with wisdom and love.

Nothing wrong with taking the gospel to the streets. We are to 'go', not expect them to come to our churches.

You, Bob, and myself all love God's Word. Our rebuke should be based on proper interpretation of His Word, not just on our opinions of it that may or may not be correct.
 

lightninboy

Member
So turn on the light and reveal all the glory
I am not afraid
To bare all my weakness knowing in meekness
I have a kingdom to gain
 

lightninboy

Member
So I'll cherish the old rugged cross,
till my trophies at last I lay down;
I will cling to the old rugged cross,
and exchange it some day for a crown.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
We should not throw out the old hymns just for modern ditties/choruses.

We should also recognize that some hymns have questional lyrics from a biblical point of view.
 

lightninboy

Member
I have been, I am being, and I shall be saved.
I have been saved from the penalty of sin. That Scripture calls salvation (Acts 16:31). It also calls that justification (Rom 3:24). But, in addition to what has happened to me, I am being saved every day from the power of sin (Heb 7:25). That the Scripture calls sanctification. Because of God’s faithfulness, I shall yet be saved one day from the presence of sin altogether. That the Scripture calls glorification. All three of those are called "salvation" in the Word of God.
We accept one as Savior who also is Lord and having received Him as Savior we will find out more and more of His Lordship. If we are slow about it, He will take us to the woodshed. For, He promises us that every son that He receives, He chastises.
Disqualified from what? From the incorruptible, imperishable crown! My position of service with Jesus Christ in the life to come! I am becoming today as a child of God what I will be in the life to come. I can be a prince or a boot black depending on what I do with what I have. God leaves that up to me. Choose your position. Today is a day of becoming. Then is a day of being what I have become. I am training today to reign tomorrow. This is training time for reigning time.
In 1 Cor 4:2, Paul tells us that "it is required in stewards that one be found faithful." What is a steward? A steward is a manager of somebody else’s property or equipment. When I came into the family of God, God gave me a sovereign deposit and said, in effect, "Now take it and trade with it. Use it. Show me what kind of commitment you have got. If you do nothing with it you will get nothing." That’s the gist of 1 Cor 3:12-15.
It is significant to note that both the unregenerate and the regenerate will be judged by their works. The unregenerate will be judged by their works at the Great White Throne Judgment and the result of that judgment will be degrees of eternal punishment in hell. The regenerate will be judged by their works at the Judgment Seat of Christ and the result of that judgment will either be reward or the lack of it.
I can never be judged for my sins because my sins have been paid for.
How are you doing? Are you progressing? Will you have ten cities, five cities, or no cities? Will the stewardship that God has put into your hands be taken away from you and given to someone else who knows how to use it? Are you using God’s resources to your own interest? A steward is not an owner; a steward is a manager. A steward is a trustee, and it is required of stewards that they be faithful to the intent of the owner if they are going to be well thought of by that owner.
God tells the one person, "You faithless, wicked servant! I will take away from you what you have. Why didn’t you at least lend it out for interest? Why did you go and hide it in the ground?" What is God talking about? He is not talking about justification, He is talking about our present use of what He has entrusted to us, and our consequent position and privilege of service to His glory in His reign. Where I go is dependent on who I know. What I do when I get there is totally dependent on what I do now with what He gave me from the time I received that life from Him. That’s the motivating factor. Don’t compromise the Gospel of Grace by trying to add to it in order to motivate people on to maturity. The true motivation is glorification and what I shall do in the life to come.
"Bikini Believers at the Bema." And I submit to you that in light of 1 Cor 3:12-15 there are going to be, I’m afraid, many.
I run into some people who say, "Well, I don’t believe you ought to work for reward, I believe you ought to work for the Lord." I want to submit something to you. It’s impossible for you to work for the Lord without working for reward because the delight of the heart of Jesus Christ is going to be able to give out all the rewards that He can possibly fairly give out. But He won’t do it unjustly (Rev 22:12). He won’t do it unrighteously, and the person who is not willing to pick up his or her cross, so to speak, as a disciple, who is not willing to suffer for Christ, shall not reign.
I don’t feel like I want to hold back. I want to give it my all. I don’t need to live a long time. What I do need to do is live qualitatively because a short life of that kind on earth will have a long effect through all eternity. A weight of glory, a kind of manifestation where I shall reflect the glory of Jesus Christ forever and ever.
 

Sozo

New member
kmoney said:
Do you include Christians in this also?

A "dead work" is trying to do something, to get something, that you already have.

Believers have been given everything in Christ.

When Christians try to gain something from God by what they do, those are dead works.

All works by unbelievers are dead works, because they are already condemned. All their deeds are as filthy rags.

The only works that have any importance in the life of a Christian are those things that God is doing in us, and through us. For the most part, you will probably be unaware of them. That is why we walk by faith.

"...for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure."

kmoney... Did you understand the text in those two chapters?


Let's ignore the rest of what is being said in this thread, and keep up the dialogue. I think you will find this to be eye-opening and life changing.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Sozo,

Earlier I said:

I just cannot understand how anyone cannot see that the following verses are speaking of rewards which Christians will receive:

"Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire" (1Cor.3:12-15).

To which you replied:
Sozo said:
In this life, Paul referred to those whom he has preached the gospel to, and nurtured in the faith, are his crown. They are also his reward for laying the foundation (Jesus). And others are rewarded as they build on that foundation. They are rewarded in the fact that they see the fruit of their labor, in those who have grown in the faith; not that they get something extra in the age(s) to come.
I believe that the rewards that are spoken of here are rewards that will be revealed later:

"Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire".

"...for the day shall declare it".

The Greek word translated "shall declare" is in the "future" tense. If the rewards are being given now for a Christian's "laying the foundation (Jesus)" then the tense would not be "future".

I believe that the words "the day" refers to the "day of Christ",when believers will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.At that time Christians will appear before the "Bema Seat" of Christ:

"For we must all appear before the judgment (bema) seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad" (2Cor.5:10).

A "Bema Seat" was the seat in the ancient Olympics that a judge would sit on,and he determined which position the runners came in and then to present the rewards accordingly.

As 2Cor.5:10 says,at this Bema Seat the Christian will "receive the things done in His body".

What do you think that this is referring to if not "rewards"?

In His grace,--Jerry
 

Sozo

New member
Jerry Shugart said:
The Greek word translated "shall declare" is in the "future" tense. If the rewards are being given now for a Christian's "laying the foundation (Jesus)" then the tense would not be "future".
Are you for real?

Of course it is in the future. If you share the gospel with someone that is built on Christ, and not on works, then the "day" (of the Lord) will show it, because your preaching will not have been in vain.

If you preach to them another gospel, that is not built upon THE foundation, then it will be worthless, and your efforts will have been in vain.

"I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth."

"According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But let each man be careful how he builds upon it."

For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ

The "reward" to those who build upon the foundation with the truth, is that they have souls that are saved. If he is saved, but does not build on the foundation with the truth, then all his work is in vain, but he shall remain, and there is no reward of those whom he led astray.


I have already dealt with 2 Corinthians 5:10 in it's entirety, just a few posts back. Paul continues to discuss the same issue as he does in 1st Corinthians from the view of suffering in our bodies.
 
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Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Sozo said:
Are you for real?

Of course it is in the future. If you share the gospel with someone that is built on Christ, and not on works, then the "day" (of the Lord) will show it, because your preaching will not have been in vain.
Sozo,

Are you for real?

Previously you spoke as if Paul had already received his reward:
In this life, Paul referred to those whom he has preached the gospel to, and nurtured in the faith, are his crown. They are also his reward for laying the foundation (Jesus).
You said that "they are his reward",i.e."present tense".

But now you reverse yourself and say that Paul's reward remains in the future.

And then you ask me if I am for real!

It is you who is not being realistic when it comes to interpretating the Scriptures.
 

Sozo

New member
Jerry Shugart said:
Sozo,

Are you for real?

Previously you spoke as if Paul had already received his reward:

You said that "they are his reward",i.e."present tense".

But now you reverse yourself and say that Paul's reward remains in the future.

And then you ask me if I am for real!

It is you who is not being realistic when it comes to interpretating the Scriptures.

Jerry...

When does Paul lay and build upon the foundation?

When are people saved?

Paul speaks of the reward as being those who are receiving the gospel now, and the proof of it is realized in the day of the Lord.

You are just being your usual obstinate jerk-off self, looking to trip people up, with no interest in the truth, whatsoever.

You and godless make a perfect couple.

Try paying attention. You are notorious for being an idiot.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Sozo said:
Jerry...

When does Paul lay and build upon the foundation?

When are people saved?
Sozo,

Of course you remain floating around in unreality,not being able to distinguish between the "present" tense and the "future" tense.

And when everyone can see that you have no resonable answer you fall back on your old tactics.When you cannot answer the message you attack the messenger.

Why don't you just admit that you are confused?

There is no harm in admitting that you made a mistake.

But I forgot,aren't you the one who says that you never sin?

You never sin and you never make a mistake.

You are a legend in your own mind!
 

Sozo

New member
Jerry... You are a pompus jackass.

Here is my first post to you...

All who come to Christ, receive THE reward (present & future tense), which is His life, and in His life we receive all that God has prepared for us (present & future tense).

The crown(s) that believers receive are life, righteousness, and glory through faith in Jesus Christ. All those who are in Christ receive them (present & future tense).

In this life, Paul referred to those whom he has preached the gospel to, and nurtured in the faith, are his crown. They are also his reward (present & future tense) for laying the foundation (Jesus). And others are rewarded as they build on that foundation (present & future tense). They are rewarded in the fact that they see the fruit of their labor, in those who have grown in the faith (present tense); not that they get something extra in the age(s) to come.

Preaching a gospel of works, is building on the foundation with wood, hay, and straw, and the reward will be burned up (future tense). His efforts will produce nothing of value in the hearts of those whom he has shared (present & future tense).

Jerry, we presently recieve the reward of Christ's life, and will in the future see the redemption of our bodies, which is the fullness of the reward realized.

Here is my follow up post...

Of course it is in the future. If you share the gospel with someone that is built on Christ, and not on works, then the "day" (of the Lord) will show it (future tense), because your preaching will not have been in vain (present tense).

If you preach to them another gospel, that is not built upon THE foundation, then it will be worthless, and your efforts will have been in vain (present & future tense).

"I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth."

"According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But let each man be careful how he builds upon it."

For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ

The "reward" to those who build upon the foundation with the truth, is that they have souls that are saved (present & future tense). If he (the one who presents the gospel) is saved (present tense), but does not build on the foundation with the truth (present tense), then all his work is in vain (present & future tense), but he shall remain, and there is no reward of those whom he led astray (future tense).

There is no contradiction, Jerry.

You are confused.

btw... attacking the messenger was a common practice by Jesus, Paul, Stephen, Peter, and other men who had to put up with ungodly heretics like you and godrulz.
 

lightninboy

Member
Come and join the reapers
All the kingdom seekers
Laying down your life to find it in the end
Come and share the harvest
Help to light the darkness
For the Lord is calling faithful men
 
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