lightninboy
Member
What's wrong with Bruce Wilkinson?
What denomination of church do you go to?
What denomination of church do you go to?
Question for Bob Hill: Rewards
- Thread starter Sozo
- Start date
lightninboy
Member
What you need is a good Baptist church!
Here is one I know of in Kansas City:
http://www.northlandbaptist.org/
Here is one I know of in Kansas City:
http://www.northlandbaptist.org/
Sozo
New member
lightninboy said:
:chuckle:
I know most of the Pastors in most of the churches in this area. I use to promote concerts, pro-life events, and bible conferences, so I am well aware of what most teach in both the denominational and non-denominational congregations in the metro area.
I was very involved with the Christian community, and believe me, I want nothing to do with it.
lightninboy
Member
Is it a bunch of Bob George fans?
What is your eschatological view?
What is your eschatological view?
lightninboy
Member
It is true that eschatology is rather speculative.
However, I have read on TOL that you are a dispensationalist.
However, I have read on TOL that you are a dispensationalist.
lightninboy
Member
You said you knew what the pastors taught in Kansas City.
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28273&highlight=dispensationalist+Sozo
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28273&highlight=dispensationalist+Sozo
lightninboy
Member
Okay, maybe you're not a dispensationalist in eschatology.
Do you agree with Malcolm Smith on eschatology?
Do you agree with Malcolm Smith on eschatology?
lightninboy
Member
It appears Malcolm Smith is an amillennialist.
http://www.apocalipsis.org/articles.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amillennialism
This looks like your problem!
David Needham, Multnomah Bible College Professor of Theology:
Graduated from both Westmont College and Dallas Theological Seminary with B.A. and Th.M. degrees.
Every saved person possesses two natures, with provision made for victory of the new nature over the old nature through the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit (Gal. 5:16-25; Eph. 4:22-24; etc.). There are some who teach that the old nature has been eradicated and rooted out of the believer resulting in sinless perfection. The Bible makes it very clear that sinless perfection cannot be attained this side of heaven (1 John 1:8,10).
There are others who teach that although a believer can and does sin, he does not possess two natures. They teach that the believer in Christ possesses only one nature, the new nature in Christ. David Needham popularized this view in his book Birthright: Christian, Do You Know Who You Are? John MacArthur follows this same view: "Biblical terminology, then, does not say that a Christian has two different natures. He has but one nature, the new nature in Christ. The old self dies and the new self lives; they do not coexist. It is not a remaining old nature but the remaining garment of sinful flesh that causes Christians to sin. The Christian is a single new person, a totally new creation, not a spiritual schizophrenic" (Ephesians, p.164).
According to God’s Word the believer has two natures--one because of one’s physical birth (because of the FIRST ADAM) and one because of one’s spiritual birth (because of the LAST ADAM). The Biblical truth that the believer has two natures is essential for the real and right outworking of the indwelling Christ and God the Holy Spirit’s overcoming ministry.
For help in understanding the two natures of the believer, read Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth by C.I. Scofield (especially the chapters entitled "The Believer’s Two Natures" and "The Believer’s Standing and State"). Another helpful book relating to this subject would be The Complete Green Letters by Miles Stanford. The Middletown Bible Church also has some helpful literature dealing with the two natures of the believer, including Dr. John MacArthur’s One Nature Position (31 pages, $1.50). See also the study entitled The Believer's Standing and State.
Lifetime Guarantee
by Bill Gillham
Some good but also some very dangerous teachings
Gilham defines the Biblical term "flesh " as the human brain and the habit patterns etched into the brain ,Gilham teaches you must understand this definition of the flesh to walk in victory.If this is true the many teachings Paul gave on the " flesh " could not be understood until modern science uncovered these workings of the brain in the 20th century , that means for 19 centuries no Christian really knew what his "flesh " really was or how to deal with it , and maybe Paul himself did not know what the flesh was or at least he did not describe needing to know about your personal habitual brain patterns.In fact Gilham may be the only human in history whom God was please to reveal the mystery of the "flesh".I know of no other Bible teacher who uses this definition , that is unless they borrowed it from Gilham
http://www.apocalipsis.org/articles.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amillennialism
This looks like your problem!
David Needham, Multnomah Bible College Professor of Theology:
Graduated from both Westmont College and Dallas Theological Seminary with B.A. and Th.M. degrees.
Every saved person possesses two natures, with provision made for victory of the new nature over the old nature through the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit (Gal. 5:16-25; Eph. 4:22-24; etc.). There are some who teach that the old nature has been eradicated and rooted out of the believer resulting in sinless perfection. The Bible makes it very clear that sinless perfection cannot be attained this side of heaven (1 John 1:8,10).
There are others who teach that although a believer can and does sin, he does not possess two natures. They teach that the believer in Christ possesses only one nature, the new nature in Christ. David Needham popularized this view in his book Birthright: Christian, Do You Know Who You Are? John MacArthur follows this same view: "Biblical terminology, then, does not say that a Christian has two different natures. He has but one nature, the new nature in Christ. The old self dies and the new self lives; they do not coexist. It is not a remaining old nature but the remaining garment of sinful flesh that causes Christians to sin. The Christian is a single new person, a totally new creation, not a spiritual schizophrenic" (Ephesians, p.164).
According to God’s Word the believer has two natures--one because of one’s physical birth (because of the FIRST ADAM) and one because of one’s spiritual birth (because of the LAST ADAM). The Biblical truth that the believer has two natures is essential for the real and right outworking of the indwelling Christ and God the Holy Spirit’s overcoming ministry.
For help in understanding the two natures of the believer, read Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth by C.I. Scofield (especially the chapters entitled "The Believer’s Two Natures" and "The Believer’s Standing and State"). Another helpful book relating to this subject would be The Complete Green Letters by Miles Stanford. The Middletown Bible Church also has some helpful literature dealing with the two natures of the believer, including Dr. John MacArthur’s One Nature Position (31 pages, $1.50). See also the study entitled The Believer's Standing and State.
Lifetime Guarantee
by Bill Gillham
Some good but also some very dangerous teachings
Gilham defines the Biblical term "flesh " as the human brain and the habit patterns etched into the brain ,Gilham teaches you must understand this definition of the flesh to walk in victory.If this is true the many teachings Paul gave on the " flesh " could not be understood until modern science uncovered these workings of the brain in the 20th century , that means for 19 centuries no Christian really knew what his "flesh " really was or how to deal with it , and maybe Paul himself did not know what the flesh was or at least he did not describe needing to know about your personal habitual brain patterns.In fact Gilham may be the only human in history whom God was please to reveal the mystery of the "flesh".I know of no other Bible teacher who uses this definition , that is unless they borrowed it from Gilham
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Sozo,Sozo said:
I came on this thread and said that 1 Cor.3:12-15 demonstrates that Christians will receive rewards in the future according to their "works".
But you came on and told me that I am wrong.
First you said that Paul had already received his reward.
Then I pointed out the rewards spoke of are in regard to a "future" reward.
You agreed with me,that they are future.
So therefore I am right when I said that the Christian will receive rewards in the future for their works.
You are wrong when you say that they will not.
You have provided absolutely no Scriptual evidence to support your position.All you do is deny what the Scriptures say.
You remain in unbelief on this subject despite the fact that you have no Scriptual evidence to back up your idea. You will not believe what the Scriptures reveal and that alone proves that you have sinned,"for whatsoever is not of faith is sin" (Ro.14:23).
lightninboy
Member
Can a Christian sin?Sozo said:
Can a Christian get rewards?
Who is the nastiest person on this thread?
Who doesn't want to have anything to do with the Christian community?
lightninboy
Member
And we all will stand at the bema seat
All will be revealed - it will be complete
Will there be reward in the fiery heat
When we see our lives at the bema seat
All will be revealed - it will be complete
Will there be reward in the fiery heat
When we see our lives at the bema seat
Sozo
New member
You have yet to define what those rewards are? However, I may have assumed you meant something other than what they truly are. In rereading your post, I thought you were saying that the reward had nothing to do with salvation.Jerry Shugart said:
There is both a future reward, and also a present reward involved in those passages.
Again, I assumed you were speaking of rewards other than those associated with Christ and what accompanies salvation.
Were we not discussing 1 Corinthians 3? What need was there to go outside of the verses in question? I did, however, direct you to read my post on 2 Corinthians where Paul revisits this issue.
Here is what I said earlier and affirm again...
"The "reward" to those who build upon the foundation with the truth, is that they have souls that are saved. If he (the one who is teaching) is saved, but does not build on the foundation with the truth, then all his work is in vain, but he shall remain, and there is no reward of those whom he led astray."
When someone adds to the foundation with the truth, then the "day" reveals that it was not dead works. But, they already possessed what is later to be revealed. If it was not already there, then the day would not have revealed it. The reward is that it remained, but the reward was already there.
I have NO unbelief in any area, you turdslinging pervert. YOU are a liar, Jerry, and without any credibility. You are a pathetic little man.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
It is you who is pathetic,Sozo.Sozo said:
If anyone dares to disagree with you on a minor point in regard to the Scriptures you accuse them of being an idiot and unsaved.
I have known bullies all of my life,and you are a perfect example of a bully of the worse kind. When you can't have your way you attempt to intimidate anyone who does not agree with you.
The Scriptures reveal that the Christian will receive rewards in the future. I believe that but you do not. Since the Lord did not choose to reveal exactly what those rewards are then I will not speculate what those rewards might be.
However,I do believe Paul when he tells us that in the future some Christians will receive rewards.
After quoting 1 Cor.3:12-15 to you here is what you said about a "future" reward:
When I demonstrated just how pathetic that answer was you said:
Sure,Sozo.
According to you what you said had nothing at all to do with answering the points that I raised in regard to 1 Cor.3:12-15!
You just decided to throw something out there that had nothing to do with the verses which you were having troble answering. And then you have the nerve to say this about me:
It is you who have lost all credibilty,Sozo. That is,if you ever had any to begin with.
Here is another of your pathetic efforts to pervert the truth:
You are saying that those who add to the foundation with truth already have the reward.You are saying that they had the reward before the time in the future when the day will reveal it.
However,if we are going to believe this then we must belong that Paul was wrong when he put the "receiving" of the reward in the future:
"Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward" (1Cor.3:14).
The Greek word translated "shall receive" is in the "future" tense,Sozo.
If a Christian had already received the reward then Paul would not say that he "shall receive" it in the future.
You prove over and over that you have no respect for any Scriptures that contradict your petty ideas. You will twist them and pervert them until they no longer resemble what was originally said.
Then when someone points out to you that a verse is not saying what YOU say that it says you turn bully. You are then determined to bully them until they shut or and go away.
lightninboy
Member
Amillennialism:
the most pervasive heresy in history
The preachers of Christendom are quick to tell you what you need to be saved FROM, but few there are who say anything about what you are saved TO. What IS the promise of salvation? Is it only that you get to escape hell and go to heaven? And what, pray tell, is heaven? Does it make sense to you that God would create the heavens and the earth for us only so that we could be prepared to spend eternity in some incorporeal reality that is completely unrelated to anything we have ever known, ever experienced or ever desired? The Bible says,
(1 Cor 2:9-10 KJV)But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. {10} But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
The reality of the matter is this: your eschatology is the summary and conclusion of your theology - this is NOT some isolated subject that is unrelated to the rest of your religion and life! I say it again: your eschatology is the SUMMARY AND CONCLUSION of your religion. If you suspect (as many do) that your God has no real interest in your earthly happiness and fulfillment, you will probably agree with the Amillennialist, whose eschatology implies that for your ultimate reward, you get to lose all of those things which you are presently laboring to gain and protect -- and you get to lose them FOREVER!
The Millenium defined
The Old Testament has many references to and descriptions of this restored Paradise, but nothing about WHEN this will happen or how long this will last. The book of Revelation fills in those details:
(Rev 20:6 KJV) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
(Rev 5:9-10 KJV) And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; {10} And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Here it is clearly asserted that the Redeemed shall reign "on the earth," and NOT in some heavenly sphere! And the word "shall" clearly indicates a future fulfillment, because "they" are not yet reigning "on the earth". You who would "spiritualize " these scriptures to mean some sort of hypothetical reigning must answer to how these, who are already deceased, could be said to be reigning on the earth! Where are these already deceased saints from Revelation 5:10, that are supposedly reigning on the earth? Have you met any of these?
Now, I am certain that the very first time any honest person reads the Bible from cover to cover, that they plainly see the promise of a renewed earth wherein the righteous receive ALL of the good things that they lost or forfeited in this age. And WHO is it that would object to this wonderful scenario in which the vindication of righteousness is finally realized in the lives of those who gave up "all" for Christ's sake? The meek shall finally inherit the earth! And after 1000 years of this, and only THEN, will there be a new heavens and a new earth that has NEVER been tainted by sin and never shall be.
For the first 150 years of Christianity, Premillennialism was plainly and indisputably the common eschatology of our Faith. During this time there was great persecution and many were thrown to the lions or executed for their faith by some other terrible device. The fact that there were so many who willingly embraced martyrdom for Christ's sake was fueled by the Words of Christ Himself, who promised that he that loses his life for my sake and the Gospel's, the same shall save it. It was during this period also that many young men and women embraced celibacy for Christ's sake - and why? Because they lived with the same lively hope that there was nothing that they could give up for Christ's sake, but that they would receive it again IN ALL IT'S PROMISE in the next age!
What motivates those who teach that there is no "next age" wherein men are rewarded in kind for their heroic obedience and sacrifices in THIS age? Amilllenialism is not conducive to patience, restraint and sacrifice because it tells a man that his end is to become a sexless angelic caricature with nothing to look forward to but a state that he is presently avoiding with all of his might! The Amillennialists would have it that what we have to anticipate is very much akin to "Hindu heaven", by suggesting that once we have been completely purged of any and all desire for material things and sensual pleasures; and when we no longer care whether or not we attain any earthly fulfillment or success; and after we have renounced all interest in the comforts of wife and family, that we shall be in the thrall of the glory of God, crying, "holy, holy, holy" for the rest of eternity! If this is really what the Amillennialists are joyfully looking forward to, why then aren't they renouncing all of their earthly possessions and comforts right now?
Amillennialism is necessarily cynical about the entire human race, for it proposes that the end of man is to no longer be a man! Amillennialism is fueled by envy born of unfulfillment; it is the unbelieving supposition that God is NOT pleased with the world as He originally created it to be - despite the fact that after He had created all things, He declared that they were GOOD.
Amillennialists say that the Devil is bound NOW!
The idea that Satan is bound NOW, is preposterous! Amillennialists say that the proof that the devil is already bound is seen in the continued growth in size and influence of Christendom in the world. That is not evidence of anything except this: "Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world" (1 John 4:4 KJV). It should also be noted that there are several regions in the ancient world that were thoroughly Christianized by the end of the fourth century which have long since rejected the gospel AGAIN, for instance: Turkey and North Africa. How did these nations become deceived again if Satan is bound?
the most pervasive heresy in history
The preachers of Christendom are quick to tell you what you need to be saved FROM, but few there are who say anything about what you are saved TO. What IS the promise of salvation? Is it only that you get to escape hell and go to heaven? And what, pray tell, is heaven? Does it make sense to you that God would create the heavens and the earth for us only so that we could be prepared to spend eternity in some incorporeal reality that is completely unrelated to anything we have ever known, ever experienced or ever desired? The Bible says,
(1 Cor 2:9-10 KJV)But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. {10} But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
The reality of the matter is this: your eschatology is the summary and conclusion of your theology - this is NOT some isolated subject that is unrelated to the rest of your religion and life! I say it again: your eschatology is the SUMMARY AND CONCLUSION of your religion. If you suspect (as many do) that your God has no real interest in your earthly happiness and fulfillment, you will probably agree with the Amillennialist, whose eschatology implies that for your ultimate reward, you get to lose all of those things which you are presently laboring to gain and protect -- and you get to lose them FOREVER!
The Millenium defined
The Old Testament has many references to and descriptions of this restored Paradise, but nothing about WHEN this will happen or how long this will last. The book of Revelation fills in those details:
(Rev 20:6 KJV) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
(Rev 5:9-10 KJV) And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; {10} And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Here it is clearly asserted that the Redeemed shall reign "on the earth," and NOT in some heavenly sphere! And the word "shall" clearly indicates a future fulfillment, because "they" are not yet reigning "on the earth". You who would "spiritualize " these scriptures to mean some sort of hypothetical reigning must answer to how these, who are already deceased, could be said to be reigning on the earth! Where are these already deceased saints from Revelation 5:10, that are supposedly reigning on the earth? Have you met any of these?
Now, I am certain that the very first time any honest person reads the Bible from cover to cover, that they plainly see the promise of a renewed earth wherein the righteous receive ALL of the good things that they lost or forfeited in this age. And WHO is it that would object to this wonderful scenario in which the vindication of righteousness is finally realized in the lives of those who gave up "all" for Christ's sake? The meek shall finally inherit the earth! And after 1000 years of this, and only THEN, will there be a new heavens and a new earth that has NEVER been tainted by sin and never shall be.
For the first 150 years of Christianity, Premillennialism was plainly and indisputably the common eschatology of our Faith. During this time there was great persecution and many were thrown to the lions or executed for their faith by some other terrible device. The fact that there were so many who willingly embraced martyrdom for Christ's sake was fueled by the Words of Christ Himself, who promised that he that loses his life for my sake and the Gospel's, the same shall save it. It was during this period also that many young men and women embraced celibacy for Christ's sake - and why? Because they lived with the same lively hope that there was nothing that they could give up for Christ's sake, but that they would receive it again IN ALL IT'S PROMISE in the next age!
What motivates those who teach that there is no "next age" wherein men are rewarded in kind for their heroic obedience and sacrifices in THIS age? Amilllenialism is not conducive to patience, restraint and sacrifice because it tells a man that his end is to become a sexless angelic caricature with nothing to look forward to but a state that he is presently avoiding with all of his might! The Amillennialists would have it that what we have to anticipate is very much akin to "Hindu heaven", by suggesting that once we have been completely purged of any and all desire for material things and sensual pleasures; and when we no longer care whether or not we attain any earthly fulfillment or success; and after we have renounced all interest in the comforts of wife and family, that we shall be in the thrall of the glory of God, crying, "holy, holy, holy" for the rest of eternity! If this is really what the Amillennialists are joyfully looking forward to, why then aren't they renouncing all of their earthly possessions and comforts right now?
Amillennialism is necessarily cynical about the entire human race, for it proposes that the end of man is to no longer be a man! Amillennialism is fueled by envy born of unfulfillment; it is the unbelieving supposition that God is NOT pleased with the world as He originally created it to be - despite the fact that after He had created all things, He declared that they were GOOD.
Amillennialists say that the Devil is bound NOW!
The idea that Satan is bound NOW, is preposterous! Amillennialists say that the proof that the devil is already bound is seen in the continued growth in size and influence of Christendom in the world. That is not evidence of anything except this: "Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world" (1 John 4:4 KJV). It should also be noted that there are several regions in the ancient world that were thoroughly Christianized by the end of the fourth century which have long since rejected the gospel AGAIN, for instance: Turkey and North Africa. How did these nations become deceived again if Satan is bound?