Poll: Do you agree with this picture?

[Clete]

That's what I gleaned because that's what he said.

Look, if you're not interested in seriously discussing the topic just say so and stop wasting my time.

Understand that when you make fun of "Resting in Him", you are insulting Jesus Christ's life, death and resurrection. I will put you on ignore if you persist - not that you'd care.

 

[Clete]

No one is 100% accurate.

This point is well taken! My comment was clearly hyperbole. The point was merely that virtually all of Bob's congregation would give an answer that musterion agrees with as to the meaning of the picture.

 

[heir]

I have read every publication Bob Enyart has ever published (that I know of) and listened to most every sermon he has preached in the last decade or more. You clearly have some sort of axe to grind. Nothing you said here makes any sense! Of course Bob teaches why Jesus died on the cross! Are you seriously suggesting that 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is some how foreign to Bob's doctrine? If so, you're a lunatic.

No axe, just the facts! Bob does not preach 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV as the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth (Romans 1:16 KJV). He preaches Romans 10:9-10 KJV is "the gospel" (or at the very least a part of how one is saved) yet that is not the WHY of the cross/the gospel of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV). It is the WHO of Jesus Christ and that God raised Christ from the dead (Romans 1:1-4 KJV). It has no power to save anyone.

Just the facts!

 

[intojoy]

Maybe


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

 

[heir]

I have read every publication Bob Enyart has ever published (that I know of) and listened to most every sermon he has preached in the last decade or more. You clearly have some sort of axe to grind. Nothing you said here makes any sense! Of course Bob teaches why Jesus died on the cross! Are you seriously suggesting that 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is some how foreign to Bob's doctrine? If so, you're a lunatic.

Is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV cited in "The Plot"? If so, is it presented as the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth? If so, which page?

 

[heir]

And as for being grafted in, Bob doesn't teach we were grafted into Israel any more than Romans 11 does. In other words, Bob teaches Romans 11 means what it says. It DOES NOT teach that the Body of Christ is part of Israel and neither does Bob. If you think he does, you are flatly wrong. However, Paul states clearly that we gentiles were grafted into something!

Romans 11:16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said.

So, tell me again how, "we are not grafted in to anything"!

It isn't Bob that taught this, it was Paul - The APOSTLE Paul! Bob simply read the bible and repeated what he read to those standing around.


Resting in Him,
Clete

There's only one thing the Gentiles to whom Paul was addressing "wert graffed in" (as in already/past tense) and that is graffed into the Olive Tree which is Israel. The Romans were Gentiles that were partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;


Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;


And that, mind you, before being established into the BoC by Paul's gospel (Romans 1:11 KJV, Romans 16:25-27 KJV).

They'd yet to hear it (Romans 1:11-17 KJV)! That's why it was still possible for them to be cut off (Romans 11:22 KJV)! That could never be said to an already saved member of the Body of Christ!

 

[Vintage68]

No Olive tree here.

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

 

[heir]

This is a note to show why we cannot be those who were "graffed in". Since the grafting in is spoken of in Romans 11 we need a little background on who these Romans were.



They had a faith that was spoken of throughout the whole world


Romans 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. 8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.


Paul longed to see them that he may impart to them some spiritual gift to the end they may be established


Romans 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers; 10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you. 11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established; :12 That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.


So these Romans had a faith that was spoken of throughout the whole world, but but it was not the mutual faith of both Paul and them. Paul longed to see them that he may impart unto them some spiritual gift to the end they may be established that he may be comforted together with them by the mutual faith both of them and him.


I believe the Romans' faith was this, the gospel of God, concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord (the WHO of Jesus Christ) and declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:


Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; :4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:


So what was the spiritual gift that Paul wanted to impart unto them that they may be established? It is Paul's "my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, but now is made manifest,..."


Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: 27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

These Romans had never heard the gospel of Christ; how that Christ died for our sins and that He was buried and rose again the third day! 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

Romans 1:15-17 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also. 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

On to the grafting in:


Romans 11:19-22 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.


This CANNOT be speaking of anyone in the Body of Christ for you CANNOT be CUT OFF! When you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, trusting Him alone for your salvation; that He died for YOUR sins, was buried and rose again on the third day you are SEALED with that holy Spirit of promise (the earnest of our inheritance) unto the day of redemption!


1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


Ephesians 1:13-14 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

 

[heir]

Gentiles could not have been graffed in without the possibility of being cut off. They're connected. By identifying us as "grafted in", Bob and those who repeat it are really telling others they can be cut off. It just might lead someone into thinking there is something that they need to do to be saved or stay saved as the text of Romans 11:19-22 KJV can be (and is often) twisted and used to manipulate people into making a fair shew in the flesh (Galatians 6:12-13 KJV). It's untrue and dangerous doctrine and has nothing to do with you, me or anyone else today in the dispensation of the grace of God (Ephesians 3:1-6 KJV)!

 

[Danoh]

Heir, how do you get around the fact that Aquila and Priscilla had been with Paul for some two years if not longer (Acts 18), and that he refers to them as "my helpers in Christ" In Romans 16?

They are back at Rome (which is their home, Acts 18) when Paul is STILL WRITING Romans; they had straightened Apollos out in Acts 18; they had risked their lives for Paul; all the churches of the Gentiles knew of them; Paul relates that they have an ongoing assembly IN ROME - and yet, for some reason they keep Paul's gospel from the Romans who clearly know them?

Romans 16:3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus: 16:4 Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles. 16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my well-beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

I'll not go into the others ALREADY AT ROME and whom Paul clearly knows when he is STILL WRITING Romans, and visa versa.

 

[heir]

Heir, how do you get around the fact that Aquila and Priscilla had been with Paul for some two years if not longer (Acts 18), and that he refers to them as "my helpers in Christ" In Romans 16?

They are back at Rome (which is their home, Acts 18) when Paul is STILL WRITING Romans; they had straightened Apollos out in Acts 18; they had risked their lives for Paul; all the churches of the Gentiles knew of them; Paul relates that they have an ongoing assembly IN ROME - and yet, for some reason they keep Paul's gospel from the Romans who clearly know them?

Romans 16:3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus: 16:4 Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles. 16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my well-beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

I'll not go into the others ALREADY AT ROME and whom Paul clearly knows when he is STILL WRITING Romans, and visa versa.

There's nothing to "get around". The Romans to whom Paul wrote the letter had a faith (Romans 1:1-4 KJV), but not the mutual faith both of them and Paul(Romans 1:12 KJV). They had a need to be established by "some spiritual gift" (Romans 1:11 KJV) which turns out to be Paul's "my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, but now is made manifest,..." (Romans 1:11 KJV, Romans 16:25-27 KJV).

Romans 1:15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

 

[Nanja]

Are you capable of giving a straight answer?

There are some people that are elect and some that are not. What's the difference? What made God pick one for salvation and another for damnation?

I'm asking you to tell me what you're own doctrine teaches. This is not some sort of test to see if you give an answer I agree with. I'm asking you to tell me what you own beliefs are.

If there is a test at all its merely to see if have the courage of your own convictions or if you are afraid of your own doctrine.

I believe that the scriptures are the only Authority for Doctrine:

2 Tim. 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.


So when you asked:

What caused God to pick one person to be elect and not some other person?

That's why I quoted those scriptures: Job 23:13-14; Prov. 16:4; Is. 46:9-10: God does whatever He Pleases with His Creation. They express exactly what I do believe without compromise. Every person's own words must come under the scrutiny of God's Words Mat. 4:4. So in obedience to God, we must come to Truth comparing scripture with scriptures 1 Cor. 2:13


Further, I believe the scriptures show that the ones God had Chosen in Christ Eph. 1:4; Deut. 7:7 are the only portion of humanity which He Loved, for there is no indication in scripture to prove otherwise. So His choosing some and reprobating all others is a demonstration of His Sovereign distinguishing Love for those He predestinated to be His Adopted Children, and all to the Praise and Glory of His Grace Eph. 1:6!

~~~~~

 

[musterion]

My answer.......Do you love the Lord Jesus Christ?

Yes. The life/new man that He has given me does. My flesh/old man still hates Him and always will, but he counts for nothing.

Paul didn't tell us to "give our hearts to Christ." How could we possibly do that anyway? If we're saved, the new life we have is His...HE gave it to US...and our old life is counted as crucified. Paul told believers to be putting off the old man and, thereby, be walking in the spirit which is newness of life. So I cannot understand any possible way to apply that slogan scripturally to the believer.

And it definitely cannot be applied to an unbeliever. There's no point in an unbeliever offering to Christ that which God has already condemned as desperately sick, wicked, unable to be changed and needing to be replaced. Of course God welcomes him as he is, as he did with us. But there's no offering or giving anything to God in order to be saved. There is only the reception of Christ by faith according to 1 Cor 15:1-4.

So the question remains, how will most people who see that cartoon or that sticker take it? They will take it as how you become right with God, if they're even interested enough to consider what it means.

Once again I remind you that there are millions of church occupants worldwide who are banking eternity on having done exactly that. They prayed a prayer where they "gave their heart to Christ" because that, or something equally false, is what they were told to do to be saved.

 

[Nanja]

Originally Posted by Nanja
Do you see how that does away with a man's freewill choice?


It is only God's Will that is Free and Sovereign and controls and determines all others' will!


Dan. 4:35
And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?


How can an inhabitant of the earth that has been reputed as nothing have been given a freewill to determine his own eternal destiny?

Impossible.

Their own will is nothing compared to God's Will!

~~~~~

Rubbish - the choosing in Christ is in Christ.

Meaning, the moment one believes and is baptized by the Spirit into Christ, 1 Cor. 12:13, he is made a part of what God has determined to do for Himself to His Glory in His Son through the Spirit resident in said Believer.

God determined that this is what He would do in those who would come to Believe in His Son - He determined that, before the foundation of the world, Eph. 1.

Put your notions away

Typical false gospel of works!



God's Choosing of His Adopted Children In Union with Christ occurred before the world began 2 Tim. 1:9: Eph. 1:4-5.

The only kind of believing that pleases God Rom. 8:8 is a Fruit of the Spirit of God given in New Birth Gal. 5:22.

So the order is, first a person is Given Spiritual Life, then they Believe in Christ!

~~~~~

 

[Clete]

No axe, just the facts! Bob does not preach 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV as the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth (Romans 1:16 KJV). He preaches Romans 10:9-10 KJV is "the gospel" (or at the very least a part of how one is saved) yet that is not the WHY of the cross/the gospel of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV). It is the WHO of Jesus Christ and that God raised Christ from the dead (Romans 1:1-4 KJV). It has no power to save anyone.

Just the facts!

You're a lunatic.

There is no conflict between Romans and Corinthians.

 

[Clete]

I believe that the scriptures are the only Authority for Doctrine:

2 Tim. 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.


So when you asked:




That's why I quoted those scriptures: Job 23:13-14; Prov. 16:4; Is. 46:9-10: God does whatever He Pleases with His Creation. They express exactly what I do believe without compromise. Every person's own words must come under the scrutiny of God's Words Mat. 4:4. So in obedience to God, we must come to Truth comparing scripture with scriptures 1 Cor. 2:13


Further, I believe the scriptures show that the ones God had Chosen in Christ Eph. 1:4; Deut. 7:7 are the only portion of humanity which He Loved, for there is no indication in scripture to prove otherwise. So His choosing some and reprobating all others is a demonstration of His Sovereign distinguishing Love for those He predestinated to be His Adopted Children, and all to the Praise and Glory of His Grace Eph. 1:6!

~~~~~

I swear its as though Calvinists do not understand the English language!

It is either that or they have no answer to a totally simple question that even they are willing to state out loud to their own hearing.



Let me try again....



You have answered the question "What does God do?"

"Whatever He pleases." is your answer.

Once again, wrong QUESTION!


I want to know WHY!

The fact that, according to your doctrine, it pleased God to pick one person for good and another for evil is obvious. Otherwise, something else would have happened. In other words, you've answered with an uninformative tautology.

What happens is what pleases God and what pleases God is what happens. Its the same thing!

The question I'm asking you is, what was it that pleased Him about one person and not the other? What tipped the scale in favor of one and against another? WHY does God love the elect and hate the reprobate?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

When you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, trusting Him alone for your salvation; that He died for YOUR sins, was buried and rose again on the third day you are SEALED with that holy Spirit of promise (the earnest of our inheritance) unto the day of redemption!

This is verbatim what Bob Enyart teaches - verbatim! Bob is as strong as anyone I've ever heard on the idea that you cannot under any circumstances lose your salvation.


Romans 11 does not teach that any member of the Body of Christ can be cut off. It's a warning that if God can stop Israel's program then He can stop the Gentile's program too. When God cut off Israel, He didn't cut off anyone who believed! He didn't cut off Paul or James or John or Peter or any other of the Twelve or any of their converts, all of whom were Jews and members of Israel when God cut Israel off. Why then would you presume that Romans 11 is talking about cutting off believers and take that as an excuse to create a doctrine that requires Paul to have preached two gospels, one in the book of Romans and another everywhere else I presume?!

There is an axe. Anyone familiar with Bob's teaching can see it plain as day.

 

[Nanja]

All that can be known about what God's Election of Grace entails is revealed to His Elect Saints in His Word Eph. 1:4-11; 2 Tim. 1:9; Rom. 9:11, 13, 20-23; Deut. 7:6-7. But the rest have not been given understanding of these Truths, and so they shall remain a stumblingblock to them.

~~~~~

 

[heir]

You're a lunatic.

There is no conflict between Romans and Corinthians.

The WHY pf the cross is not in Romans 10:9-10 KJV. The gospel of your salvation (and mine) is that Christ died for our sins, and that He was buried and rose again the third day. Romans 9, 10 and 11 is about Israel's past, present (then present) and future. Romans 10:9-10 KJV is what Israel should have done, but failed to do. It is not the gospel of Christ nor the formula for our salvation. To declare it as such is biblical ignorance.

I'm not a lunatic. I am charging some that they teach no other doctrine.

 

[musterion]

The WHY pf the cross is not in Romans 10:9-10 KJV. The gospel of your salvation (and mine) is that Christ died for our sins, and that He was buried and rose again the third day. Romans 9, 10 and 11 is about Israel's past, present (then present) and future. Romans 10:9-10 KJV is what Israel should have done, but failed to do. It is not the gospel of Christ nor the formula for our salvation. To declare it as such is biblical ignorance.

Yep. Paul was illustrating a proper response to the Gospel, but was not giving the Gospel itself. The content (1 Cor 15:1-4) just isn't there, and the context is God's dealings with national Israel.