ECT "PISTEUO", the secret of the universe....
- Thread starter Faither
- Start date
God's Truth
New member
Muste and glor are so confused because of this man's sin.
Interplanner
Well-known member
It's time to calm down folks. "By his experience, my Righteous One will justify many."--Is.53. So it is not something we do that justifies us.
Now, if you need further discussion on what justification is, let's go on to that, but clearly this thing is tearing Christians apart.
Now, if you need further discussion on what justification is, let's go on to that, but clearly this thing is tearing Christians apart.
God's Truth
New member
Jesus justifies us with his blood, his blood that cleans us, after we repent of our sins.
God's Truth
New member
We are to work out our salvation, and fear God to the point of trembling will move you to stop those sins. So do what the Word of God says and work out your salvation with trembling and fear.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Yes, I know that's there, but that is not the dominant theme or working force of the NT. Of course, fear may be a misunderstood or poorly translated 'reverence' in Greek. But by way of contrast to the Phil 2 passage there is I Jn 4 about living in love. In fact, such love (living immersed in God's love) casts out fear, "because fear has to do with punishment. The man who fears is not perfected in love." That would be the knowledge of the love of God for him. As you know, when John talks about love, he does not mean our love for God but God's love for us. The Christian faith is not fear-based anymore than it is shame- or guilt-based.
God's Truth
New member
You cannot put aside any scripture. How do you think you can lessen any of the scriptures?
One shouldn't try to find different words for the words they do not like.
Does it make sense you should tremble without fear?
Love is obeying. That is what the scriptures say.
Why would one fear if they are doing right?
Who is going to hurt you if you do right?
Of course, it is about our love for God.
So far, all you did in this post, was say God didn't really say ___.
musterion
Well-known member
She already gave her view on this.
musterion
Well-known member
The problem is, to your mind "work out your salvation" = "work FOR your salvation."
lifeisgood
New member
God DISAGREES with your false doctrine:
Romans 5:8 -- But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
God's Truth
New member
We do not need you to stop the discussion.
She said he wasn't saved because of his sin.
She just preached obedience and doesn't recognize the truth.
God's Truth
New member
What don't you get about the truth? Work is work, and we are commanded to do it. You speak against 'work' and think that arguing about the word 'out' and the word 'FOR' changes the truth. It does not change anything of the truth.
Your arguing about words that do not matter is against the Word of God, see 2 Timothy 2:14 Keep reminding God's people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.
Interplanner
Well-known member
It will help this dicsussion not to use the word saved. Use either justified from sin-as-debt or transformed from sins, because two very different aspects are involved, and if not kept distinct, you will talk past each other, and have talked past each other.
God's Truth
New member
Christ died for sinners, and for sinners who lived before he came to earth, and for sinners yet to be. How do you get you have disproved anything? We must admit we are sinners before we can even petition Jesus to save us. All are sinners.
God's Truth
New member
Oh look, now someone else comes arguing about words that do not matter. Don't use/say the word 'saved'! Use the other word 'justified'? How about 'sanctified', or 'made holy', or 'made perfect'? How 'made righteous'?
You are arguing too about words that do not matter. Justified, made righteous, made holy, made perfect, and sanctified are all the same thing---and that happens when one is 'saved' has 'salvation'.
What don't you get about it is all the same and you should not argue about words?
Interplanner
Well-known member
No can do. it is the historic position of protestant evangelical theology since Luther that justification and transformation cannot be confused. The standard explanation goes like this:
There are two distinct aspects to God's redemptive activity:
1, Justification, what God has done in Christ historically for us (about our debt of sin)
2, Transformation, what God does in us through the Spirit (about sin's ongoing stain in our life)
You have made a fundamental error by not making distinctions. It was the RCC position, when responding to Luther, that #2 was the same thing as #1, and that a person was not saved unless they participated in the sacraments. It was called gratia infusa because it was grace that occurred in a person's life.
There is nothing but confusion if this is taken to be what justification is. And there is no glory for Christ alone.
God's Truth
New member
The Catholics have false doctrines as does Luther. Why don't you give up your false teachers doctrines and get Jesus' teachings and do them? Jesus will reveal himself to those who obey him. See John 14:21.
Interplanner
Well-known member
I'm sure he did, being a human bean, but this one was not one of them. The problem at the beginning of the Reformation was not imputa vs infusa. It was that imputa was lost! Non-existent! No one knew that's what Paul was really saying. Parallel to this is that Luther dreaded the 'righteousness of God' in Romans until realizing was the synonym of grace! Then he was excited and saw through so much of the darkness.
2nd, the church has a tendency to go dark. That is why it is important to study church history and to study the history of doctrines. Most false doctrines have been tried already. Why? These things can be found if you spend time on it.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Nonsense. Members of the body are not torn apart, and those who claim they are saved by their own obedience are not members of the body of Christ.
The natural man cannot know spiritual things, which is why people like God's UnTruth are left preaching one untruth after another. Musty and I, for instance, have no disagreement on the justification of faith. It's GT that isn't able to comprehend it.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Yep....they read the same to her. It's a critical difference, but she thinks words don't matter.