"OSAS" people are not answering this question.

[God's Truth]

You're joking, right? WE, as opposed to YOU, have full assurance of our salvation. Maybe you're becoming a bit discombobulated with all this trying to make Scripture say what you want it to say.

You can know if you are saved by whether or not you are obeying.

Since you speak against obedience, then how do you know if you are saved or not?

 

[God's Truth]

There are false Christians (like Simon Magus)
There are lapsed Christians who have fallen back into sin.
There are apostates who having been born again subsequently deny the faith or go into doctrinal heresy (as Jude talks about)

Paul had the church judge and dis-fellowship someone who was apparently a believer but who was in sin which was causing deception to spread.

Simon asked to be prayed for and Philip told him to repent.

Those here who go against us say they never had to repent of their sins. They are worse than Simon.

 

[elohiym]

Of course murder is wrong, evil, sinful. But if it is not done voluntarily....

Murder is always wilful. The rest of your post is based on the false notion that murder isn't always wilful. 1 John 3:15 stands; your arguments falls.

 

[elohiym]

I was specifically referring to seeing true Christians (those who at one time had a genuine salvation experience) who have fallen into sinful lifestyles...

1 John 3:6 states they never knew him, like the Lord will say to them on the last day; but you are arguing they knew him for a bit.

 

[elohiym]

There are false Christians (like Simon Magus)

In the early Church writings you are fond of, people who claimed to be Christians but occassionally sinned were considered guilty of immorality and rejected as unbelievers.

There are lapsed Christians who have fallen back into sin.

They never knew the Lord and have been cut off (Ro 11:22). Why do teach the false doctrine they they once knew the Lord?

You shouldn't be teaching these people when you still need to learn the basics of the gospel. Going line upon line as you have caused you to stumble and be snared.

 

[elohiym]

It is more a matter of them revealing the abundance of what is in their heart by what they say.

What you say tells me you still sin occasionally like StanJ.

The wages of sin is death, but you think you're alive. Delusion.

 

[elohiym]

I am not capable of bearing fruit without abiding in the Vine but through depending on the Holy Spirit I can. My strength comes from Him.

How strong is God if he can't keep you from sinning occasionally?

This is where you equivocate and ramble on about free will.

 

[elohiym]

...I have met plenty of non-believing Christians in my lifetime.

This thread is full of them.

 

[God's Truth]

Gosh, it must be nice to be able to see into the heart of men.

1 Samuel 16:7b "for God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."​

Jesus tells us how we see what is in a person's heart.

It is by what they say and do.

 

[Shasta]

Hypocrite! Holier than thou, pride filled Hypocrite. I can see the PRIDE and boasting from here and it sickens me.


Salvation is a gift those who believe the Gospel receive. Thank you for making your position so clear.

Only a few posts before you were claiming that it was pride for me to determine if a person had been a true believer or not even when they had sat down with me face to face and shared their life experiences, their heart, their testimony. Now you, not having never seen or spoken with me face to face, claim to know the motives of my heart. I find that somewhat hypocritical.

Salvation is a gift. It cannot be earned but, as you know, the condition for receiving it is faith. Was your faith a "work" whereby you earned salvation. I would say it was not about trying harder but surrendering which is why many of us became believers because of a crisis that revealed our need of a Savior. I have never yet seen someone come to a saving faith just to enrich their lives.

What I apparently represent to you is a contradiction to your preconception that anyone who does not believe OSAS must be a legalist, full of pride, or a false believer. Although I have seen those whom I had personally known to be true believers fall into sin and then comfort themselves with the idea that no matter what they did they were saved, I do not pass judgment on everyone who believes in OSAS. There are many ministers of the word who are godly and anointed who happen to be in error about OSAS.

The writings of the earliest Christians until 350 AD or so reveal that they did not believe OSAS either. Unanimously they believed in conditional salvation. They did not believe in MAD either. I know this because they believed in the equal authority and inspiration of the whole NT without division or subdivision into microdispensations. There is no plausible explanation for that except that they were teaching what had been passed down from the Apostles. You think I am in error but, from the standpoint of early Christianity your views would have been considered in error.

 

[elohiym]

The verse says we cannot bear fruit EXCEPT we abide in Him. IF we do then we do bear fruit.

Your false doctrine is that occasionally believers bear bad fruit.

The Lord said a good tree cannot bear bad fruit.

 

[God's Truth]

Your false doctrine is that occasionally believers bear bad fruit.

The Lord said a good tree cannot bear bad fruit.

We have to work out our salvation; we train ourselves.

We also stumble in many ways.

If any of us sins, we can find mercy and forgiveness.

Those are all scriptures.

 

[Danoh]

You really should do a word search in a concordance (blueletterbible.org is a good online reference).

Let's see what the phrase "made righteous" really means according to the words written.

_____
καθίστημι kathistēmi
I.to set, place, put
__A.to set one over a thing (in charge of it)
__B.to appoint one to administer an office
__C.to set down as, constitute, to declare, show to be
__D.to constitute, to render, make, cause to be
__E.to conduct or bring to a certain place
__F.to show or exhibit one's self
____i.come forward as
_____​

_____
δίκαιος dikaios
I.righteous, observing divine laws
__A.in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God
____i.of those who seem to themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves in their virtues, whether real or imagined
____ii.innocent, faultless, guiltless
____iii.used of him whose way of thinking, feeling, and acting is wholly conformed to the will of God, and who therefore needs no rectification in the heart or life
______a.only Christ truly
____iv.approved of or acceptable of God
__B.in a narrower sense, rendering to each his due and that in a judicial sense, passing just judgment on others, whether expressed in words or shown by the manner of dealing with them
_____​

so, by the obedience of One, many shall be caused to be keeping the commandments of God.

So, what does Paul say about being righteous before God?

Romans 2:13 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just (δίκαιος dikaios) before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.​

Consider that what you have done is (cherry) pick from those two word definition lists the "definition" you assumed best fits what you have come to believe...

And that it is not what one learns in Basic Elementary School Reading 101; about how the intended sense of any word or words is arrived at.

Further, in your above, you have actually exposed unawares, the basic origin behind your misunderstanding of the various passages you have been citing in your various posts on this thread.

It is obvious you are reading things into the passages, together with combining passages you think are saying the same thing, because you long forgot Basic Reading 101 Principles.

Consider that most adults would flunk the Basic Reading Skills tests they left behind as children.

But many on all sides of the fence do exactly the same thing you have, and all the time - they'll confuse a passage as laid out, as being the same as the intended sense the writer was attempting to convey.

Then, building from there, by the time someone comes along from without and points this out, they have built up so much based on that error that, there is not much hope of helping them get back on track.

Their ears long since made dull of hearing any view but their own.

Its always best one hear others out. Even children are sometimes able to point out a thing one had failed to consider.

 

[elohiym]

Why did Paul tell them this? Because they were sinning.

He told those certain Corinthians that they were still carnal. See "Ye are yet carnal." Some of the people in that congregation were still carnal and did not yet believe the gospel. See Romans "...the carnal mind is enmity against God." Others in the same congregation believed the gospel. See "...such were some of you." It's the same in local congregations today. Most of the people participating on this thread claim to believe but don't know the gospel. They are still covetous.

 

[God's Truth]

Consider that what you have done is (cherry) pick from those two word definition lists the "definition" you assumed best fits what you have come to believe...

And that it is not what one learns in Basic Elementary School Reading 101; about how the intended sense of any word or words is arrived at.

Further, in your above, you have actually exposed unawares, the basic origin behind your misunderstanding of the various passages you have been citing in your various posts on this thread.

It is obvious you are reading things into the passages, together with combining passages you think are saying the same thing, because you long forgot Basic Reading 101 Principles.

Consider that most adults would flunk the Basic Reading Skills tests they left behind as children.

But many on all sides of the fence do exactly the same thing you have, and all the time - they'll confuse a passage as laid out, as being the same as the intended sense the writer was attempting to convey.

Then, building from there, by the time someone comes along from without and points this out, they have built up so much based on that error that, there is not much hope of helping them get back on track.

Their ears long since made dull of hearing any view but their own.

Its always best one hear others out. Even children are sometimes able to point out a thing one had failed to consider.

Your constant put downs about people having disabilities and being dumb is not from God.

 

[elohiym]

We have to work out our salvation; we train ourselves.

We also stumble in many ways.

If any of us sins, we can find mercy and forgiveness.

Those are all scriptures.

Hebrews 10:26-29 is scripture.

 

[Danoh]

We have to work out our salvation; we train ourselves.

We also stumble in many ways.

If any of us sins, we can find mercy and forgiveness.

Those are all scriptures.

Folks, right there is an example of reading the Law into passages not talking, neither about, nor under, the Law.

But, at this point, this is said for those whose ears have not yet been made dull of hearing.

 

[Danoh]

Your constant put downs about people having disabilities and being dumb is not from God.

Folks, that right there just shows how easy it is for some to read things - in this case, a put down - into another's words - for their consistent failure to restudy out Basic Reading 101.

 

[God's Truth]

Folks, right there is an example of reading the Law into passages not talking, neither about, nor under, the Law.

The Law was fulfilled by Christ. That means you can have the Law wriitn IN your heart and on your mind.

But, at this point, this is said for those whose ears have not yet been made dull of hearing.

Stop going against obeying Jesus.

 

[God's Truth]

Folks, that right there just shows how easy it is for some to read things - in this case, a put down - into another's words - for their consistent failure to restudy out Basic Reading 101.

God hid His Word from people such as yourself.

How do you feel about that?

That is the Truth.