"OSAS" people are not answering this question.

[elohiym]

I see you are still in the delusion that you were born with the Holy Spirit in you.

I see you still reject the gospel.

Believers sin until they stop sinning.

False. Someone born of God cannot sin. See 1 John 3:6-10. If you sin, you are a sinner. Believe the gospel and you will be set free from the bondage of sin.

 

[elohiym]

Is that what you believe elohiym?

I believe every person is born with the Spirit of God, else children would not be of the kingdom and innocent. Didn't our Lord say call no man father because we have one Father in heaven? Didn't our Father in heaven form us all in the womb, as it is written? Psalm 82 is all about people's ignorance that God is the Father of us all. There is much scripture about what I'm claiming.

I know we are not born with the Spirit because Jesus tells us when we will receive the Holy Spirit, and that is after we repent and call on him.

It was God's Spirit in me that made me aware of my sin so I could repent. He had been in me all my life but I had not yet received Him, like Jesus was in the presence of men who did not receive Him. I did not suddenly one day have God's Spirit enter my body because of something I did. It is written we are not born of God by our wills but by faith, and the only way for that to be logical is that we had the Spirit from conception. Now we must become like little children again; we must be born again of God... again, not the first time. There are many scriptures that support what I am claiming.

Consider Jesus breathed on his disciples and told them to receive the Holy Spirit. If we believe Jesus is God, that is equivalent to Him communicating that God's breath, which we all received at conception, is His Spirit.

However, I believe that you are saved...not that it matters what I believe, but just telling you what I believe about you.

I appreciate knowing that, sister.

I was different from most since birth in that I did not want to sin and constantly thought about God. I did not enjoy any sins that I did, and was not taught about God's Truth as I should have been taught; however, I still had to repent of sins. Jesus himself saved me, and I know exactly when he saved me and came to live in my heart.

I didn't know my Father for most of my life, but I know with certainty that He has always been my Father from conception.

 

[elohiym]

I love Shasta for his obedience to Christ ...

Shasta has given me the impression that he is occasionally disobedient like StanJ.

 

[meshak]

Shasta has given me the impression that he is occasionally disobedient like StanJ.

It seems like you are OSAS believer.

 

[God's Truth]

It seems like you are OSAS believer.

We can know if we will be OSAS. We can know because we understand that we have to obey. That is different than the doctrine of OSAS.

I believe elohiym is saved and always will be.

Elohiym knows that we have life by obeying Jesus.

 

[God's Truth]

Shasta has given me the impression that he is occasionally disobedient like StanJ.

I know what you mean, but I believe Shasta is looking to the mercy of Christ, and that is why he says what he does.

 

[Shasta]

They also didn't believe Christians occasionally sinned like you do.

They believed Christians could apostasize. Therefore they had to believe Christians could sin. Denying ones faith is sin.

 

[elohiym]

Jesus was not saying all his followers would be completely sinless.

In the parable of the sower, "those are the ones on whom seed was sown on the good soil; and they hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirty, sixty, and a hundredfold." You say they sin from time-to-time but don't fall into a lifestyle of sin, and say that even though they couldn't have known Him and then at later time "never" known Him. I claim believers are like John's parents (Luke 1:6) without the burden of the Mosaic ordinances (Col 2:14).

Jesus said to people like you, "If you were blind you would have no sin." That is equivalent to saying, if you walked by faith instead of sight, you would have no sin. It's also the equivalent of saying, "Walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfil the lust of the flesh." You are on the other side with the father of lies arguing that if a person walks by faith, walks in the Spirit, he will still occasionally sin. You think you see, so your sin remains.

It is written,

And Jesus said, "For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind." Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, "We are not blind too, are we?" Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains."​

Jesus said to people, "Sin no more so a worse thing doesn't happen to you." Why would the Lord tell people they could "sin no more" and "have no sin" if, as you obviously believe, they would always sin occasionally until the grave? You will never grasp the truth until you concede that we must completely cease from sin of perish, and recognize your idea of a "lifestyle" of sin is illogical.

His followers had to be rebuked at times.

Like Peter who denied Him at the cross? Jesus told Peter just before the cross that he wasn't converted, that satan desired to sift him, but that Jesus would pray for him so that WHEN he was converted he would strengthen his brethren. We don't know when Peter was coverted, but he taught we had to cease from sin. He states unequivocally that those who have the mind of Christ have ceased from sin.

We see this in ACTS and in the letters the Apostles sent the Churches.

When Paul tells those certain Corinthians that they are still carnal not spiritual, he's telling them that they haven't believed the gospel yet.

Even believers who are good trees need to be pruned at times.

That's not in scripture. It is written that a good tree cannot bear bad fruit. Sin is bad fruit. If I can't know you are an unbeliever because you occasionally sin, then the saying is pretty much worthless. 1 John 3:10 also states I can know you by your occasional bad fruit. You're living the lifestyle!

 

[elohiym]

It seems like you are OSAS believer.

I reject that false doctrine.

The Lord has instructed us in this matter through the parable of the sower. That is what I believe and teach.

 

[meshak]

I reject that false doctrine.

The Lord has instructed us in this matter through the parable of the sower. That is what I believe and teach.

OSAS believers claim they cannot sin and it seems you believe that too.

 

[God's Truth]

I believe every person is born with the Spirit of God, else children would not be of the kingdom and innocent.

I see what you are saying, I do. However, we are made clean and sanctified by having faith that Jesus’ blood cleans us from our sins.

Didn't our Lord say call no man father because we have one Father in heaven?

Jesus was speaking about calling no brother in Christ Father. Jesus is speaking spiritually.

Didn't our Father in heaven form us all in the womb, as it is written?

All are formed in the womb as God commanded; however, Jesus says those who do wrong have the devil for a father, and those who do right have God as their Father.

Psalm 82 is all about people's ignorance that God is the Father of us all. There is much scripture about what I'm claiming.

I will truly listen to everything that you have to say, and I hope you will do the same for me.

It was God's Spirit in me that made me aware of my sin so I could repent. He had been in me all my life but I had not yet received Him, like Jesus was in the presence of men who did not receive Him.

Remember though, Jesus said he would send the promised Holy Spirit to live with them forever.

I did not suddenly one day have God's Spirit enter my body because of something I did.

What about God pouring out the promised Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God the Father and Jesus Christ himself. Jesus says if you obey his teachings the Father and he will make his home with those who obey. See John 14:23. That shows us we must do something. We must obey.

It is written we are not born of God by our wills but by faith,

The scripture that says not by our will, it is about not by our saying, “I want to be a Jew and my wife too.” See John 1:13.

and the only way for that to be logical is that we had the Spirit from conception. Now we must become like little children again; we must be born again of God... again, not the first time. There are many scriptures that support what I am claiming.

Born again by the Spirit means we are washed clean of all the sins we ever committed. It means we are new again without sins. We have a new life, and not like the old, not of the flesh where we really do not know God…we have a new life without sins and now have the Spirit of God to live through.

Consider Jesus breathed on his disciples and told them to receive the Holy Spirit. If we believe Jesus is God, that is equivalent to Him communicating that God's breath, which we all received at conception, is His Spirit.

See what you are saying though…you say when Jesus breathed on them that it is equivalent to Him communicating God’s breath that we all received at conception… Then why did Jesus say receive and not just realize? Jesus gave them the Holy Spirit at that time, and that was much later than when they were born.
When God made Adam, God breathed their spirit into them, not His Spirit into us.
We are reconciled to God by receiving His Spirit after we confess and repent of our sins and believe that Jesus’ blood washes us clean.

I appreciate knowing that, sister.

You see, you have a heart that is kind and humble and loving. The kind of heart in which Jesus lives.

I didn't know my Father for most of my life, but I know with certainty that He has always been my Father from conception.

I believe the same here, except we still had to be “reconciled” to Him.

 

[elohiym]

They believed Christians could apostasize. Therefore they had to believe Christians could sin. Denying ones faith is sin.

To deny one's faith is unbelief. I am arguing that when one believes he doesn't sin; he doesn't sin occasionally. An apostate, the one denying his faith, sins occasionally. All sin stems from unbelief.

If you are arguing a person can believe and then change his mind, fine. I'm not disputing that. You can find that idea in the parable of the sower. It has only little to do with my argument and refutes nothing I've claimed on this thread.

 

[elohiym]

OSAS believers claim they cannot sin and it seems you believe that too.

The OSAS believers are claiming they are not under the law in a sense that would mean their coveting was not counted against them and wasn't seen as sin by God. That is a false doctrine.

I claim I cannot sin, as it is written in 1 John 3:9 and 1 John 5:18. When I claim I do not covet, I mean I have nothing to covet so I have no internal desire to covet. I can say the same thing for murder, stealing, and every other sin because they stem from coveting.

How would it be possible for me to commit idolatry if I don't believe in other gods? I don't believe they exist! It's simply not possible for me to be an idolater, just as it is impossible for me violate other laws.

 

[meshak]

The OSAS believers are claiming they are not under the law in a sense that would mean their coveting was not counted against them and wasn't seen as sin by God. That is a false doctrine.

I claim I cannot sin, as it is written in 1 John 3:9 and 1 John 5:18. When I claim I do not covet, I mean I have nothing to covet so I have no internal desire to covet. I can say the same thing for murder, stealing, and every other sin because they stem from coveting.

How would it be possible for me to commit idolatry if I don't believe in other gods? I don't believe they exist! It's simply not possible for me to be an idolater, just as it is impossible for me violate other laws.

Jesus' standard is perfection. So you claim you are perfect?

 

[elohiym]

We can know if we will be OSAS. We can know because we understand that we have to obey. That is different than the doctrine of OSAS.

Yes. We are only proclaiming what can easily be discerned from the parable of the sower (for those who have ears to hear).

I believe elohiym is saved and always will be.

Elohiym knows that we have life by obeying Jesus.

Thanks, sister.

 

[God's Truth]

Jesus' standard is perfection. So you claim you are perfect?

YOU say we are to obey Jesus. JESUS says to be perfect. Then you attack others WHO OBEY AND those who acknowledge that they are PERFECT, just AS JESUS SAYS AND COMMANDS!

 

[meshak]

Jesus' standard is perfection. So you claim you are perfect?

bump for elohym.

 

[Shasta]

Better be careful about what you boast about. Even looking at a woman with lust, will break that.

I know a great many people broken by God after they claimed they would not and could not do something, and then it presented itself in their heart.

You also contradict yourself when you say no way you could do something, but also admit you are weak.

You are right. The inner thoughts are as important as what we do. I too have known people that have fallen. Some were even ministers of the Word. The Bible says: "Let anyone that thinks he stands take heed lest he fall." When I say I would never do something I am not saying it is impossible I am expressing my intention never to go that way.

Pride is a dangerous thing for a believer to harbor. We need Him and it is when we know the flesh is weak that we depend on Him the most. When Peter bragged that he would never deny Christ he thought he could meet the challenge in his own strength but it was a spiritual battle that he could have only prepared for by prayer.

The principle of strength out of weakness comes from Paul but it is basic to the principle of the cross. I am not speaking here about the historic work of the cross for our salvation. I am speaking about the work of the cross that should be going on inside us daily. This is a truth Paul came to understand before the others. At least he wrote about it. The redemption, the new covenant, the forgiveness of sin was in prophecy but the exchanged life was an extension of the truth of the cross based on our identification with His death.

12 So then, brethren, WE are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh-- 13 for IF you are living according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God (Romans 8:12-14)

These verses will, hopefully, convey what I am trying to communicate.

First he says brethren so we know he is talking to Christians

Next he says we are under obligation. Some people think there are no obligations or imperatives in our walk but there are and this is one of them. An obligation is a responsibility we can either take up or ignore.

IF we are living according to the flesh we will die. The "if" is a conditional. If it was not possible for Christians to live according to the flesh Paul would not have needed to say this to them.

In order to live above the flesh Paul says we have to be led by the Spirit (walk in Him). Through His power we are enabled to transcend the flesh and be like Christ. But I believe we are conformed to the image of Christ progressively (2 Corinthians 3:18).

Only Christ's life in us can produce the image of Christ. This work is blocked when we put confidence in our own ability to be like him (Philippians 3:3). I do not see how anyone could argue that God does not want us to obey. Of course he does but even that we must do through Him.

 

[meshak]

Most Christians claim to be saved. This is belief stems from "OSAS" doctrine.

It is prideful and boastful. And it is not of Jesus.

Jesus is the authority to judge who will be saved or not, not anyone else.

 

[Shasta]

In the parable of the sower, "those are the ones on whom seed was sown on the good soil; and they hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirty, sixty, and a hundredfold." You say they sin from time-to-time but don't fall into a lifestyle of sin, and say that even though they couldn't have known Him and then at later time "never" known Him. I claim believers are like John's parents (Luke 1:6) without the burden of the Mosaic ordinances (Col 2:14).

Jesus said to people like you, "If you were blind you would have no sin." That is equivalent to saying, if you walked by faith instead of sight, you would have no sin. It's also the equivalent of saying, "Walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfil the lust of the flesh." You are on the other side with the father of lies arguing that if a person walks by faith, walks in the Spirit, he will still occasionally sin. You think you see, so your sin remains.

It is written,

And Jesus said, "For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind." Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, "We are not blind too, are we?" Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains."​

Jesus said to people, "Sin no more so a worse thing doesn't happen to you." Why would the Lord tell people they could "sin no more" and "have no sin" if, as you obviously believe, they would always sin occasionally until the grave? You will never grasp the truth until you concede that we must completely cease from sin of perish, and recognize your idea of a "lifestyle" of sin is illogical.



Like Peter who denied Him at the cross? Jesus told Peter just before the cross that he wasn't converted, that satan desired to sift him, but that Jesus would pray for him so that WHEN he was converted he would strengthen his brethren. We don't know when Peter was coverted, but he taught we had to cease from sin. He states unequivocally that those who have the mind of Christ have ceased from sin.



When Paul tells those certain Corinthians that they are still carnal not spiritual, he's telling them that they haven't believed the gospel yet.



That's not in scripture. It is written that a good tree cannot bear bad fruit. Sin is bad fruit. If I can't know you are an unbeliever because you occasionally sin, then the saying is pretty much worthless. 1 John 3:10 also states I can know you by your occasional bad fruit. You're living the lifestyle!

So you are not saying that people practically do not commit sins, you are simply saying that God does not call it sin. Either that or you are so externalizing sin that it does not touch on matters of thought and motive.

Jesus statement is not that believers are perfectly good and have no flaws He is simply saying a good tree will produce good fruit. It is a truism. Believers need pruning and you do not chop off fruit bearing limbs you chop off ones that are unproductive or even those that are diseased. All the Apostles rebuke Christians under their care at times. This correction is an extension of the father's own chastening. Do you think he chastens his sons when they are behaving? No, he disciplines them to bring them into conformity with his standards of character.