"OSAS" people are not answering this question.

[elohiym]

If any of you occassional sinners want to argue wilful versus intentional sins, please try and understand that there are no laws against unintentional acts. Those laws were abrogated. See Col 2:14. I cannot break non-existent laws, nor can I break all the imaginary laws in your heads that your parents and false churches put upon you. However, if I murder, steal, commit adultery, worship other Gods, I wouldn't be a believer no matter what I claim.

 

[God's Truth]

I thank God for hiding His Truth from people such as Danoh.

Luke 10:21 At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.


I see how Jesus had so much joy in that.

 

[elohiym]

The writings of the earliest Christians until 350 AD or so reveal that they did not believe OSAS either.

They also didn't believe Christians occasionally sinned like you do.

 

[God's Truth]

Hebrews 10:26-29 is scripture.

I do not believe a Christian can willfully sin; however, king David willfully sinned and he repented of it.

A Christian cannot live their life willfully sinning! They must REPENT.

There are people here going against us that say we NEVER have to repent of our sins, not before we are saved to be saved, and not after being saved! That is what you should be focused on. That is the lost and those who speak against the Word.

 

[Shasta]

Your false doctrine is that occasionally believers bear bad fruit.

The Lord said a good tree cannot bear bad fruit.

Yes it appears we disagree on that point. I believe we can walk above sin but John allows that believers sometimes sin when is said "My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not (commit a)sin. But if anyone does (commit a) sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous (1 John 2:1)

The purpose of his letter is to show people how to walk in holiness and avoid committing sins. Had he said "I write these things to you so you will not continually practice sin he would have used the present tense for sin to an indicate ongoing action. He is not assuming that those he is writing to live that way.

Instead John uses the aorist tense for sin which focuses not on continuous action but on specific acts. While he does not expect the believers to be living in sin he does allow that they might commit sins. If that happens the Apostle tells them they can be forgiven.

It is the same idea he addresses earlier. IF we walk in the light (as a practice) the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us (continually) from all sin. An abiding believer does not live in sin. However, if a believer never sinned at all - if we never had an outburst of anger, or got impatient, or were never resentful, unforgiving, envious or bitter, in short, if we always expressed the image of Christ we would not need ongoing cleansing.

But the OP of this thread is OSAS which is a position which in which a person after a salvation experience is perfectly clean no matter what sin they may go on to commit. This is nothing more than antinomianism although many who believe the doctrine do not take it that way. The proponents of MAD would object to our even using John's letter as a reference since they believe the truths of John's writings were for the Jewish believers who lived in the first half of the First Century.

 

[Danoh]

God hid His Word from people such as yourself.

How do you feel about that?

That is the Truth.

See that, people?

Scripture makes it clear that the intended sense of those "words which the Holy Ghost teacheth" was hidden in Basic Reading 101.

Of course, "Holier than thou" types will assert otherwise; makes em feel, well, you know "Holier than thou."

Acts 2:

12. And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
13. Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
14. But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15. For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

How does the Holy Ghost teach? "not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual" 1 Cor. 2: 13.

Nehemiah 8:

8. So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

Acts 2:

15. For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Basic Elementary School Reading 101:

Consider who is speaking to whom, as to what, in light of what, where, when, why, and how.

 

[God's Truth]

See that, people?

Scripture makes it clear that the intended sense of those "words which the Holy Ghost teacheth" was hidden in Basic Reading 101.

Of course, "Holier than thou" types will assert otherwise; makes em feel, well, you know "Holier than thou."

Acts 2:

12. And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
13. Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
14. But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15. For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

How does the Holy Ghost teach? "not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual" 1 Cor. 2: 13.

Nehemiah 8:

8. So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

Acts 2:

15. For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Basic Elementary School Reading 101:

Consider who is speaking to whom, as to what, in light of what, where, when, why, and how.

You cannot get around what Jesus says, and he says it is hidden from you.

There is a Way though that you can be saved. Do what the Way says. Humble yourself from the high place you put yourself. Humble yourself and REPENT.

 

[Shasta]

Another MAD expert :spam: er...

Plenty outside of MAD also teach the eternal security of the Believer.

But we both know your mind is way past feeling...

He is not off target. I believe MAD is an attempt to escape what is perceived to be the "law" by excluding the writings of other Apostles like Peter and James. Interestingly this is the same reason Marcion put together his special abridged version of the Bible which omitted the OT, the gospels, and all NT writings but ACTS and t Paul's letters. To Marcion other writings seemed too Jewish and legalistic for a follower of Paul's gospel. Of course, Marcion was universally regarded as a heretic of the first order. Both his doctrine and his (MAD-like) canon of scripture was considered abominable by the earliest Church leaders. He was eventually rebuked publicly in the strongest terms and disfellowshipped from all Christian assemblies worldwide.

 

[Shasta]

Your false doctrine is that occasionally believers bear bad fruit.

The Lord said a good tree cannot bear bad fruit.

Jesus was not saying all his followers would be completely sinless. His followers had to be rebuked at times. We see this in ACTS and in the letters the Apostles sent the Churches. Even believers who are good trees need to be pruned at times.

 

[God's Truth]

He is not off target. I believe MAD is an attempt to escape what is perceived to be the "law" by excluding the writings of other Apostles like Peter and James. Interestingly this is the same reason Marcion put together his special abridged version of the Bible which omitted the OT, the gospels, and all NT writings but ACTS and t Paul's letters. To Marcion other writings seemed too Jewish and legalistic for a follower of Paul's gospel. Of course, Marcion was universally regarded as a heretic of the first order. Both his doctrine and his (MAD-like) canon of scripture was considered abominable by the earliest Church leaders. He was eventually rebuked publicly in the strongest terms and disfellowshipped from all Christian assemblies worldwide.

That is an excellent point.

The MAD beliefs go back to the time of the apostles. Just think about what Peter says about Paul...his teachings are hard to understand for the untaught...then Peter warns us to OBEY. See 2 Peter 3:16, and 17.

James must have heard about this strange teaching also, for James says, Oh foolish man...works are dead and cannot save anyone.

See James 2:14, 17, 20, and 22.

 

[Shasta]

How strong is God if he can't keep you from sinning occasionally?

This is where you equivocate and ramble on about free will.

Do you in your thought, motives, words and actions always exemplify the image of Christ? Do you never exhibit behaviors and attitudes that are not congruent with the nine fruits of the Spirit. If I were to ask your family, your co-workers or your spouse if you ever sin, I wonder what they would say? Forget about overt acts of sin. The only time we do not sin at all is when we are in His love and giving His love.

I do not know about equivocating but we have free will and assuming we do not can have disastrous consequences.

John was talking to believers who were walking in the light when he said the blood (continually) cleansed them from all sin (1 John 1:7).

John was talking to those whom he called his children (in the faith) when he said "if anyone does sin" (1 John 2:1)

He also said "If anyone sees his (Christian) brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life.

So John is not saying dogmatically that brothers cannot fall into sin nor is he saying that "whoever falls into sin is shown not to be a brother"

The "positional" view of sinless perfectionism, that God cannot ever see any unrighteousness in me because I am "hid in Christ" is false. Paul often pointed out sins in believers. It was the Holy Spirit who told Peter Ananaias and Sapphira had lied. How would He know if their sins were hidden? God also never revealed to Peter that they never had been true believers as he had about Simon the Magician. If Ananaias and Sapphira were not true believers the proper course of action would have been to preach Christ to them.

The practical view of "entire sanctification" is from Wesley but I do not see how one experience take the place of a life of yielding ones members to the Spirit. Since yielding is an act of our will. It is a surrender of our humanity to Him for his use. This is an act of faith which is also obedience.

 

[God's Truth]

Jesus was not saying all his followers would be completely sinless. His followers had to be rebuked at times. We see this in ACTS and in the letters the Apostles sent the Churches. Even believers who are good trees need to be pruned at times.

If they do not repent of their sins, it is a sign that they maybe they were never saved in the first place, or it could mean that they fell from God's grace.

Read this scripture, Paul is worried that some people in Corinth are sinning and have not repented of the sins they are doing:

2 Corinthians 12:21 I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged.



Read how Paul is so worried about them and he is AFRAID that they have been led astray.

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.

 

[God's Truth]

Do you in your thought, motives, words and actions always exemplify the image of Christ? Do you never exhibit behaviors and attitudes that are not congruent with the nine fruits of the Spirit. If I were to ask your family, your co-workers or your spouse if you ever sin, I wonder what they would say?

Please do not judge people by what others say, for they will be quick to say you have sinned when you have not. I surely do not want anyone to ask others about me. They do not see as they should. They are guilty and want find it in those who obey.

Forget about overt acts of sin. The only time we do not sin at all is when we are in His love and giving His love.

We are supposed to live all day every day in His love.

I do not know about equivocating but we have free will and assuming we do not can have disastrous consequences.

John was talking to believers who were walking in the light when he said the blood (continually) cleansed them from all sin (1 John 1:7).

John was talking to those whom he called his children (in the faith) when he said "if anyone does sin" (1 John 2:1)

He also said "If anyone sees his (Christian) brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life.

So John is not saying dogmatically that brothers cannot fall into sin nor is he saying that "whoever falls into sin is shown not to be a brother"

That is right, for we have mercy and forgiveness through Christ. In the old law, a person might have been cut off immediately for a certain sin, but that is not the way it is for those who are in Christ Jesus.

The "positional" view of sinless perfectionism, that God cannot ever see any unrighteousness in me because I am "hid in Christ" is false. Paul often pointed out sins in believers. It was the Holy Spirit who told Peter Ananaias and Sapphira had lied. How would He know if their sins were hidden? God also never revealed to Peter that they were not true had about Simon the Magician. If Ananaias and Sapphira were not true believers the proper course of action would have been to preach Christ to them.

The practical view of "entire sanctification" is from Wesley but I do not see how one experience take the place of a life of yielding ones members to the Spirit. Since yielding is an act of our will. It is a surrender of our humanity to Him for his use. This is an act of faith which is also obedience.

That is good reading.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

I see you're still a "Baloney Salesman."

I see you are still in the bond of iniquity and the gall of bitterness.

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Your false doctrine is that occasionally believers bear bad fruit.

The Lord said a good tree cannot bear bad fruit.

I see you are still in the delusion that you were born with the Holy Spirit in you.

Believers sin until they stop sinning.

Jas 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
Jas 3:10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
Jas 3:11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
Jas 3:12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.
Jas 3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
Jas 3:14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
Jas 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
Jas 3:16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
Jas 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
Jas 3:18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Do you in your thought, motives, words and actions always exemplify the image of Christ? Do you never exhibit behaviors and attitudes that are not congruent with the nine fruits of the Spirit. If I were to ask your family, your co-workers or your spouse if you ever sin, I wonder what they would say? Forget about overt acts of sin. The only time we do not sin at all is when we are in His love and giving His love.

I do not know about equivocating but we have free will and assuming we do not can have disastrous consequences.

John was talking to believers who were walking in the light when he said the blood (continually) cleansed them from all sin (1 John 1:7).

John was talking to those whom he called his children (in the faith) when he said "if anyone does sin" (1 John 2:1)

He also said "If anyone sees his (Christian) brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life.

So John is not saying dogmatically that brothers cannot fall into sin nor is he saying that "whoever falls into sin is shown not to be a brother"

The "positional" view of sinless perfectionism, that God cannot ever see any unrighteousness in me because I am "hid in Christ" is false. Paul often pointed out sins in believers. It was the Holy Spirit who told Peter Ananaias and Sapphira had lied. How would He know if their sins were hidden? God also never revealed to Peter that they never had been true believers as he had about Simon the Magician. If Ananaias and Sapphira were not true believers the proper course of action would have been to preach Christ to them.

The practical view of "entire sanctification" is from Wesley but I do not see how one experience take the place of a life of yielding ones members to the Spirit. Since yielding is an act of our will. It is a surrender of our humanity to Him for his use. This is an act of faith which is also obedience.

True.

Jas 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

 

[Angel4Truth]

I think it's circular reasoning. A Christian who lapses into a life of sin was not a true Christian because the definition of "true Christians" are those who do not lapse. But Christians, even genuine believers, do backslide.

Define "lapsing" into sin after being saved, and how many and what kind of sins lead to loss of salvation. Spell it out using scripture, because surely if that happens, it should abundantly clear, as clear as the verses that state we are saved forever, that we are HIS purchased possesions, that it was once for all time, etc..

So define exactly what "lapsing into sin" means, and when that "lapse" results in loss of salvation. (how many times one sins after salvation and what sins, any or all)

 

[Angel4Truth]

I am married and I assure you I never worry if I am going to "fall" into adultery. I am happy with her and would never give up my fellowship with her. It is the same between the Lord and I. He has allowed great defects to remain in me that keep me ever aware that happiness and stability in the natural are illusion. Only Christ is the constant. "I dare not trust the sweetest frame, but wholly lean on Jesus' name." I know I am weak but He remains strong. Without His grace I would be dead.

Better be careful about what you boast about. Even looking at a woman with lust, will break that.

I know a great many people broken by God after they claimed they would not and could not do something, and then it presented itself in their heart.

You also contradict yourself when you say no way you could do something, but also admit you are weak.

 

[God's Truth]

I see you are still in the delusion that you were born with the Holy Spirit in you.

Is that what you believe elohiym?

I know we are not born with the Spirit because Jesus tells us when we will receive the Holy Spirit, and that is after we repent and call on him.

However, I believe that you are saved...not that it matters what I believe, but just telling you what I believe about you.

I was different from most since birth in that I did not want to sin and constantly thought about God. I did not enjoy any sins that I did, and was not taught about God's Truth as I should have been taught; however, I still had to repent of sins. Jesus himself saved me, and I know exactly when he saved me and came to live in my heart.

 

[God's Truth]

Better be careful about what you boast about. Even looking at a woman with lust, will break that.

I know a great many people broken by God after they claimed they would not and could not do something, and then it presented itself in their heart.

You also contradict yourself when you say no way you could do something, but also admit you are weak.

Shasta can boast, and so can I, so did Paul. I can even boast in Paul and in Shasta for obeying.


Paul says he wants us to boast in each other.

For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand. And I hope that, as you have understood us in part, you will come to understand fully that you can boast of us just as we will boast of you in the day of the Lord Jesus. See 2 Corinthians 1:13,14.

Paul shows us we can boast in ourselves.

2 Corinthians 1:12 Now this is our boast: Our conscience testifies that we have conducted ourselves in the world, and especially in our relations with you, with integrity and godly sincerity. We have done so, relying not on worldly wisdom but on God's grace.


2 Corinthians 7:14 I had boasted to him about you, and you have not embarrassed me. But just as everything we said to you was true, so our boasting about you to Titus has proved to be true as well.


1 Thessalonians 2:10
You are witnesses, and so is God, of how holy, righteous and blameless we were among you who believed.


2 Corinthians 12:6
Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth.


Acts 23:1
Paul looked straight at the Sanhedrin and said, "My brothers, I have fulfilled my duty to God in all good conscience to this day."


1 Corinthians 9:15 But I have not used any of these rights. And I am not writing this in the hope that you will do such things for me, for I would rather die than allow anyone to deprive me of this boast.



I love Shasta for his obedience to Christ, and his speaking about Jesus' obedience and mercy.