"OSAS" people are not answering this question.

[genuineoriginal]

You're joking, right?

No, I am not joking.
You OSAS believers must continually wonder if you were ever actually saved in the first place, since there is no way for an OSAS believer to know whether he or she was really saved.

On the other hand, those that do not buy into the false doctrine of OSAS are told how they can be assured of their salvation:

1 John 5:2-5,10-13 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? . . . 10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.​

 

[Shasta]

The verse *I* quoted, says guarantee, do you know what a guarantee is?

Why does it not say don't lose the Holy Spirit there? Thats what it would say if your words were correct, we grieve Him when we act in out in our flesh.

Nothing about loss, sorry.


Nice one, but you are using the OT theocracy which doesnt apply to Christianity, see what you have to do to try to get around whats clearly written to Christians? Israels warnings arent written to believers.

Which has nothing to do with Christianity.



What i quoted there, says He keeps it (not us), do you think He is lying?

You used this metaphor according to your cultural-linguistic assumptions not according to the way it would have been understood by the author in a First Century context. Specifically, you are assuming that the document once sealed was removed from the owner and locked up so that it was no longer accessible - not even to the owner! One would think the owner could gain comfort and assurance by keeping it. That way he could take comfort in the promise it contained by looking at it as often as he wished. Remember also, the seal is the Holy Spirit who moves in with us.

In fact, the scripture does not actually say he gave it to the care of anyone. For one, the analogy simply does not extend that far. All it suggests is that a document was ratified and sealed. In bringing in the extraneous idea of a vault you have re-framed the analogy so that it is about power. The Lord secures the status of the person and then ensures by force that it will be maintained. This is a Calvinistic way of viewing salvation but I do not think it is a scriptural view.

In speaking of seals Paul wants to impart the sense of assurance. Since we are marked by the Spirit we have his signature on us and we are His. Unless you are considering turning away from Christ serving sin and rejecting the Gospel you do not have to worry about losing anything. My only point here is that the symbol that is used does not lend itself to a description of unbreakable permanence only to assurance and validity to person who has chosen to keep his "seal" intact.

The metaphor is of imprinted wax and not molton iron because the Holy Spirit can be grieved (Ephesians 4:30), quenched (1 Thessalonians 5:19) and resisted (Acts 7:51). When Hebrews gives the account of Israel's being judged in the wilderness (because of the hardening of their hearts and grieving the Holy Spirit) it was not just speaking about the history of Israel. The story was meant to be an example to us and our walk. It serves as a warning to us (Hebrews 3:9-11). If no negative consequence is possible then warnings are meaningless.

 

[glorydaz]

It's he and his ilk that don't know from one moment to the
next if they're saved or not. That was a strange post he just
wrote?

Unfortunately, they don't understand what the law can do and cannot do. It can't justify us OR make us holy OR give us life. "IF there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

Galatians 3:21
Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.​

It's what's known as being a "professional student". They never want to graduate.

Galatians 3:24
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Galatians 3:25
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.​

 

[glorydaz]

No, I am not joking.
You OSAS believers must continually wonder if you were ever actually saved in the first place, since there is no way for an OSAS believer to know whether he or she was really saved.

On the other hand, those that do not buy into the false doctrine of OSAS are told how they can be assured of their salvation:

1 John 5:2-5,10-13 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? . . . 10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.​

That's about as childish as it gets. Unlike you folks, we don't claim to be able to see into another person's heart. I know the Holy Spirit dwells in me. I know I am IN CHRIST JESUS. It's you and the other workers I wonder about.

 

[glorydaz]

You used this metaphor according to your cultural-linguistic assumptions not according to the way it would have been understood by the author in a First Century context. Specifically, you are assuming that the document once sealed was removed from the owner and locked up so that it was no longer accessible - not even to the owner! One would think the owner could gain comfort and assurance by keeping it. That way he could take comfort in the promise it contained by looking at it as often as he wished. Remember also, the seal is the Holy Spirit who moves in with us.

In fact, the scripture does not actually say he gave it to the care of anyone. For one, the analogy simply does not extend that far. All it suggests is that a document was ratified and sealed. In bringing in the extraneous idea of a vault you have re-framed the analogy so that it is about power. The Lord secures the status of the person and then ensures by force that it will be maintained. This is a Calvinistic way of viewing salvation but I do not think it is a scriptural view.

In speaking of seals Paul wants to impart the sense of assurance. Since we are marked by the Spirit we have his signature on us and we are His. Unless you are considering turning away from Christ serving sin and rejecting the Gospel you do not have to worry about losing anything. My only point here is that the symbol that is used does not lend itself to a description of unbreakable permanence only to assurance and validity to person who has chosen to keep his "seal" intact.

The metaphor is of imprinted wax and not molton iron because the Holy Spirit can be grieved (Ephesians 4:30), quenched (1 Thessalonians 5:19) and resisted (Acts 7:51). When Hebrews gives the account of Israel's being judged in the wilderness (because of the hardening of their hearts and grieving the Holy Spirit) it was not just speaking about the history of Israel. The story was meant to be an example to us and our walk. It serves as a warning to us (Hebrews 3:9-11). If no negative consequence is possible then warnings are meaningless.

Fear and doubt....doubt and fear......worldly wisdom is not faith.

 

[Shasta]

No, I am not joking.
You OSAS believers must continually wonder if you were ever actually saved in the first place, since there is no way for an OSAS believer to know whether he or she was really saved.

On the other hand, those that do not buy into the false doctrine of OSAS are told how they can be assured of their salvation:

1 John 5:2-5,10-13 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? . . . 10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.​

I think it's circular reasoning. A Christian who lapses into a life of sin was not a true Christian because the definition of "true Christians" are those who do not lapse. But Christians, even genuine believers, do backslide.

 

[Shasta]

Fear and doubt....doubt and fear......worldly wisdom is not faith.

You think like Calvinists that salvation is decreed and has nothing to do the individual believer. Contrary to your stereotypes I never have worried about my salvation because I am resting in Him. His yoke is easy. It is the way of the transgressor that is hard. I am married and I assure you I never worry if I am going to "fall" into adultery. I am happy with her and would never give up my fellowship with her. It is the same between the Lord and I. He has allowed great defects to remain in me that keep me ever aware that happiness and stability in the natural are illusion. Only Christ is the constant. "I dare not trust the sweetest frame, but wholly lean on Jesus' name." I know I am weak but He remains strong. Without His grace I would be dead.

 

[Shasta]

Tell that to Paul--

Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

It does sound like Paul was trying to attain something, doesn't it?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

That's about as childish as it gets. Unlike you folks, we don't claim to be able to see into another person's heart. I know the Holy Spirit dwells in me. I know I am IN CHRIST JESUS. It's you and the other workers I wonder about.

Yep

 

[glorydaz]

It does sound like Paul was trying to attain something, doesn't it?

Rewards. Our Lord will bring them with Him. That is not salvation....which is a GIFT. There are five crowns....all of which are rewards. Big difference.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

No, I am not joking.
You OSAS believers must continually wonder if you were ever actually saved in the first place, since there is no way for an OSAS believer to know whether he or she was really saved.

On the other hand, those that do not buy into the false doctrine of OSAS are told how they can be assured of their salvation:

1 John 5:2-5,10-13 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? . . . 10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.​

So, how do you KNOW that you're saved 100% all the time?

 

[glorydaz]

You think like Calvinists that salvation is decreed and has nothing to do the individual believer. Contrary to your stereotypes I never have worried about my salvation because I am resting in Him. His yoke is easy. It is the way of the transgressor that is hard. I am married and I assure you I never worry if I am going to "fall" into adultery. I am happy with her and would never give up my fellowship with her. It is the same between the Lord and I. He has allowed great defects to remain in me that keep me ever aware that happiness and stability in the natural are illusion. Only Christ is the constant. "I dare not trust the sweetest frame, but wholly lean on Jesus' name." I know I am weak but He remains strong. Without His grace I would be dead.

Hypocrite! Holier than thou, pride filled Hypocrite. I can see the PRIDE and boasting from here and it sickens me.


Salvation is a gift those who believe the Gospel receive. Thank you for making your position so clear.

 

[glorydaz]

I think it's circular reasoning. A Christian who lapses into a life of sin was not a true Christian because the definition of "true Christians" are those who do not lapse. But Christians, even genuine believers, do backslide.

Oh, but never you, oh whited sepulchre. :chuckle:

Matthew 23:27
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

 

[steko]

Rewards. Our Lord will bring them with Him. That is not salvation....which is a GIFT. There are five crowns....all of which are rewards. Big difference.

:thumb: Yep!

 

[heir]

BUT PAUL says it is by still sinning, which you say does not matter once you have been saved!


1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders

You have no idea what you are reading which can lead me to no other conclusion than: you are 1 Corinthians 2:14 KJV. And it's not because the work of your salvation wasn't accomplished in your place, but that you believe not and are blinded (2 Corinthians 4:34 KJV).

It is the UNRIGHTEOUS that shall not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9-10 KJV) as in those who receive not the love of the truth that they can be saved (2 Thessalonians 2:10 KJV)! Those in the Body are 1 Corinthians 6:11 KJV!

 

[Dan Emanuel]

Gosh, it must be nice to be able to see into the heart of men.

1 Samuel 16:7b "for God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."​

:up:

"...thou, even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men..." 1 Kings 8:39 KJV


Not just other people, but Satan himself and all his demons, do not know our heart's. Only God.


DJ

1.1
​

 

[Right Divider]

You have no idea what you are reading which can lead me to no other conclusion than: you are 1 Corinthians 2:14 KJV. And it's not because the work of your salvation wasn't accomplished in your place, but that you believe not and are blinded (2 Corinthians 4:34 KJV).

It is the UNRIGHTEOUS that shall not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9-10 KJV) as in those who receive not the love of the truth that they can be saved (2 Thessalonians 2:10 KJV)! Those in the Body are 1 Corinthians 6:11 KJV!

Same old proud people, just like those that Jesus condemned in His time. They just don't understand (nor care, apparently) for the gospel of OUR salvation.

1Co 6:20 KJV For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
​

We are to glorify God AFTER He buys us.

 

[turbosixx]

1Co 6:20 KJV For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Why did Paul tell them this? Because they were sinning.

I Cor. 6:7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.


Then he tells them don’t be deceived and tells them who will not be saved. Looks what’s in the list, the very thing he is accusing them of.
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[glorydaz]

Why did Paul tell them this? Because they were sinning.

I Cor. 6:7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.


Then he tells them don’t be deceived and tells them who will not be saved. Looks what’s in the list, the very thing he is accusing them of.
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul did not tell believers they are "sinning" because believers are not under the law...they have the righteousness of God by faith. Are you people really so dense that you can't read what Paul wrote about the law?


Clearly, Paul's Gospel remains a mystery to so many people. They refuse to believe that their own "righteousness" cannot save them. If that were the case, our Lord need not have come at all.

Philippians 3:9
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:​

 

[Right Divider]

Why did Paul tell them this? Because they were sinning.

I Cor. 6:7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.


Then he tells them don’t be deceived and tells them who will not be saved. Looks what’s in the list, the very thing he is accusing them of.
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

You're just another cherry-picking Bible chopper (CPBC). You and a few others here like to CUT Paul's thought where YOU like it. Read the WHOLE thought and get it right.

1Co 6:9-11 KJV Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, (10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. (11) And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
​

We are NOT justified in OURSELVES, no matter HOW righteous we are. That's because we HAVE NO RIGHTEOUSNESS before God.