"OSAS" people are not answering this question.

[Shasta]

Nothing about the Vine that relates to the body of Christ. This is why the confusion. That verse actually says you can do NOTHING. Nothing means NOTHING...

The verse says we cannot bear fruit EXCEPT we abide in Him. IF we do then we do bear fruit. That negates what you said about it meaning that you cannot do anything.

This speaks of God sharing His life with us THROUGH the Son. How do you think Paul could say "Christ was his life?" He had heard, memorized and understood the words of Jesus and unlike you he was not hung up on the terminology like vine and branches.

Christ could not enter into union with us until after the Resurrection. What He said in John 15 was an invitation to believe in something He would shortly accomplish. After the Resurrection Jesus became, as Paul said, "a life-giving spirit" This is essentially the function of a Vine - to give life to the branches.

When Jesus completed the redemptive work and encountered the disciples in His resurrected form he immediately delivered the promise of the new covenant by breathing on them and giving them the Holy Spirit (of life). We have no life at all without the Holy Spirit. Through Him we are able to be connected to Christ who is now in heavenly places.

When the Spirit filled the Gentiles it was a sign that they too were included in the covenant, for the prophecy of the New Covenant was that God would give them His Spirit as well as that He would write His law on their hearts.

It grieves me that all of you have rejected the words of Jesus by relegating them to another people and another time. Your previous statement that Luke was a nice history book falls appallingly short of the abundance of life-giving truth that is contained in the Gospels. This is BTW what all the ECF believed from the First Century on. They also did not accept either MAD nor OSAS.

Jesus said "His words would never pass away" and for MAD they do not. They are right there recorded in old history books, preserved like a museum relic in a glass case, anachronistic precepts belonging to an obsolete message. I bet you do not even believe the new birth is for modern times either, do you?

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Your verse is referring to Israel who were not under grace.

There is a difference between loving someone and liking what they are doing.

Were your parents always pleased with your behavior?

They were the ones who initiated your existence, when they did not like what you were doing did they end that existence or did they continue to love you inspite of your disobedience?

Your parents did not love you perfectly, but God does, would God take away the eternal life he gave you simply because you are not perfect?

If so, then God's promise of eternal life is meaningless, for if he can take away that gift then you never had it, it was never yours.

All Christians have received the gift of eternal life, thus they will live eternally. Nothing they do or don't do will diminish that gift of eternal life. It is our opportunity our power base to do those things that please God. As in Acts 1:8, Ephesians 2:10. Without the gift of salvation, it is impossible for us to do those good works that God foreordained that we should walk in.

Not true.

We live in the period of probation, like as when the woman has received the promise of marriage but given the opportunity for HER to change her mind.

There are so many warnings in the NT of the consequences of turning away.

Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

1Co 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
1Co 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
1Co 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
1Co 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
1Co 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
1Co 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

These warnings are needed and should be taken notice of.

It is going against the Lords words to ascribe to something He never said.

LA

 

[genuineoriginal]

Ephesians 1:13–14 You also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory”

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Jude 24-25
Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling,
And to present you faultless
Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
25 To God our Savior, Who alone is wise, Be glory and majesty,
Dominion and power, Both now and forever. Amen.

I see you completely missed the part where the people had to learn repentance.

 

[genuineoriginal]

No, he is not saying Christians can sin because sin is transgression of the law and we are not under the law. Romans 6:14 You just read your understanding into that verse. Just as you do when Paul speaks of our being dead to sin. You can only reckon yourself to be dead to sin if you have been crucified with Christ and are ALIVE unto God through our Lord and Saviour.

You are misunderstanding Paul's words and are claiming that Paul said that we can keep doing the same thing that was sin before we believed but that it is not sin when we do it now.

What Paul is actually telling us is that we are to overcome the temptation to sin by telling ourselves that the person we were that always gave in to that temptation has died and that the person that we are now is a new creature that does not give in to the temptation to sin.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Those types of sinners mentioned in Galatians are the unsaved
to begin with. Galatians isn't speaking of Believers who have been
sealed and indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

Wrong.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Believers are quite able to sow to his flesh and reap corruption as opposed to sowing to the Spirit and reaping life everlasting.

One is opposite to the other.

Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.


Gal 6:12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised (into the MAD doctrine); only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.
Gal 6:13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

LA

 

[genuineoriginal]

Those types of sinners mentioned in Galatians are the unsaved
to begin with. Galatians isn't speaking of Believers who have been
sealed and indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

It must be very easy for you to read the few verses in your Bible that you have not covered up with a Magic Marker.

 

[genuineoriginal]

The problem is they think everyone who claims to be saved is actually saved. I have a nephew that got saved every time he went to prison. Must have been five times at least. :chew:

It must be very difficult for you OSAS believers to know if you are actually saved or not.

 

[glorydaz]

It must be very difficult for you OSAS believers to know if you are actually saved or not.

You're joking, right? WE, as opposed to YOU, have full assurance of our salvation. Maybe you're becoming a bit discombobulated with all this trying to make Scripture say what you want it to say.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Then, we're all doomed.

You misunderstand.



The confessing of the believer to the Father by Christ is not a one time event.

It is a continuous speaking of Jesus to His Father about us who believe Him and walk by faith.

I do not say Jesus is speaking to His Father about any of our wrong doing. Jesus speaks to us about that.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

LA

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

You're joking, right? WE, as opposed to YOU, have full assurance of our salvation. Maybe you're becoming a bit discombobulated with all this trying to make Scripture say what you want it to say.

It's he and his ilk that don't know from one moment to the
next if they're saved or not. That was a strange post he just
wrote?

 

[Lazy afternoon]

However, the doctrine of OSAS does not refer to being saved at the Resurrection of the righteous, it refers to the moment of confessing belief in Jesus as the point of salvation and then makes the false claim that once you have confessed belief in Jesus then you can never lose out on eternal life, no matter how wicked you become after turning away from Him.

That is what MAD teaches.

John W says he can kill 600 men and not lose his salvation.

It begs the question, is such a person ever saved at all?

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

In other words, you're trying your best to earn eternal life.

Tell that to Paul--

Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

That is what MAD teaches.

John W says he can kill 600 men and not lose his salvation.

It begs the question, is such a person ever saved at all?

LA

I really have no question about you. Know what I mean? Others will.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Tell that to Paul--

Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Are your "works" sufficient to enter eternal life?

 

[Danoh]

That is what MAD teaches.

John W says he can kill 600 men and not lose his salvation.

It begs the question, is such a person ever saved at all?

LA

Another MAD expert :spam: er...

Plenty outside of MAD also teach the eternal security of the Believer.

But we both know your mind is way past feeling...

 

[Lazy afternoon]

You're joking, right? WE, as opposed to YOU, have full assurance of our salvation. .

2Pe 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.


LA

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Another MAD expert :spam: er...

Plenty outside of MAD also teach the eternal security of the Believer.

But we both know your mind is way past feeling...

Yep

 

[genuineoriginal]

The verse *I* quoted, says guarantee, do you know what a guarantee is?

The translation you quoted was mistranslated.

Here is the Greek word:

ἀῤῥαβών arrhabṓn, ar-hrab-ohn'; of Hebrew origin (H6162); a pledge, i.e. part of the purchase-money or property given in advance as security for the rest:—earnest.​

Here is the Hebrew word it came from:

עֲרָבוֹן ʻărâbôwn, ar-aw-bone'; from H6148 (in the sense of exchange); a pawn (given as security):—pledge.​

Here is how the Hebrew word is used (which Paul knew very well):

Genesis 38:15-18 15 When Judah saw her, he thought her to be an harlot; because she had covered her face. 16 And he turned unto her by the way, and said, Go to, I pray thee, let me come in unto thee; (for he knew not that she was his daughter in law.) And she said, What wilt thou give me, that thou mayest come in unto me? 17 And he said, I will send thee a kid from the flock. And she said, Wilt thou give me a pledge, till thou send it? 18 And he said, What pledge shall I give thee? And she said, Thy signet, and thy bracelets, and thy staff that is in thine hand. And he gave it her, and came in unto her, and she conceived by him.​

In the story Paul was familiar with from the scriptures, the pledge was given to the woman to hold until the person returned with the payment that was offered, then the pledge was to be returned to receive the payment.

In the same way, when we are given the Holy Spirit as a pledge that He will give us eternal life, He expects us to have the Holy Spirit in us when He returns to give us that eternal life.
If we do not have the Holy Spirit in us because we have grieved, resisted, quenched and rebelled against the Holy Spirit, then we will not receive eternal life when He returns.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

The translation you quoted was mistranslated.

Here is the Greek word:

ἀῤῥαβών arrhabṓn, ar-hrab-ohn'; of Hebrew origin (H6162); a pledge, i.e. part of the purchase-money or property given in advance as security for the rest:—earnest.​

Here is the Hebrew word it came from:

עֲרָבוֹן ʻărâbôwn, ar-aw-bone'; from H6148 (in the sense of exchange); a pawn (given as security):—pledge.​

Here is how the Hebrew word is used (which Paul knew very well):

Genesis 38:15-18 15 When Judah saw her, he thought her to be an harlot; because she had covered her face. 16 And he turned unto her by the way, and said, Go to, I pray thee, let me come in unto thee; (for he knew not that she was his daughter in law.) And she said, What wilt thou give me, that thou mayest come in unto me? 17 And he said, I will send thee a kid from the flock. And she said, Wilt thou give me a pledge, till thou send it? 18 And he said, What pledge shall I give thee? And she said, Thy signet, and thy bracelets, and thy staff that is in thine hand. And he gave it her, and came in unto her, and she conceived by him.​

In the story Paul was familiar with from the scriptures, the pledge was given to the woman to hold until the person returned with the payment that was offered, then the pledge was to be returned to receive the payment.

In the same way, when we are given the Holy Spirit as a pledge that He will give us eternal life, He expects us to have the Holy Spirit in us when He returns to give us that eternal life.
If we do not have the Holy Spirit in us because we have grieved, resisted, quenched and rebelled against the Holy Spirit, then we will not receive eternal life when He returns.

The "Pseudo-Scholar speaks."

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Why is it when these "Pseudo Scholars" use the Greek or Hebrew words/terms,
they expect us to take their word for it? This is a forum not a class room.