"OSAS" people are not answering this question.

[turbosixx]

It does not say that.

The body of Christ is ONE NEW MAN.

Maybe I misunderstood your point from post 1021 where you say "Romans 11 is all about the FALL of Israel and their future restoration"

Being grafted into or cut off from the olive tree is NOT talking about salvation and eternal life.

Romans 11 is all about the FALL of Israel and their future restoration.

Yes, together they are now one new man, but before Christ the Gentiles were outside but have now been grafted in with the natural branches.
Eph. 2:12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel,


The Jews who did not believe the gospel were broken off and the Gentiles grafted in.
Rom. 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

When a Jew believes the gospel they are grafted "back in".
Rom. 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

 

[StanJ]

Being "cut off" from God's promise and kingdom per Romans 11:22 would be equivalent to being "cut off" from the Body of Christ, so even your interpretation, which you've given no evidence to support, gets you to the same place.

That would be your misinformed opinion and analogy.

God is the Holy Root and sustains His Kingdom and His promises. I suggest you read ALL of Rom 11 and not just use a single verse.

 

[elohiym]

That would be your misinformed opinion and analogy.

God is the Holy Root and sustains His Kingdom and His promises. I suggest you read ALL of Rom 11 and not just use a single verse.

If God is the Holy Root (I agree) and a person is "cut off" per Romans 11:22, then logically that person has been "cut off" from God, which gets you to the same place again. You've boxed yourself in now admitting that Christ is the root. Thanks!

 

[elohiym]

Stan,

In your opinion, does the parable of the sower support or refute OSAS?

18 “Hear then the parable of the sower. 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road. The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away. 22 And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 23 And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.”

 

[StanJ]

I already defeated your argument in my response to Shasta. See posts #890 and #891.

I rend to stay out of other discussions unless I see a blatant flaw, but you haven't defeated anything.

No, Stan. You didn't understand the parable at all. To say you sin less than unbelievers is to say exactly what the Pharisee said, and that is clearly what you are doing. The Pharisee didn't think he no longer sinned, just that he sinned less but his sins were covered by a sacrifice. You think you sin less than the unbeliever and think your sins are covered by a sacrifice. There isn't a person who doesn't sin in the story.

I have never had a problem understanding God's clear word. v9 is the key, and reflects exactly what you convey.

For an example of two people who kept all of God's commandments, you can see Luke 1:6. They were not self-righteous because they didn't break God's commandments, and they were nothing like that Pharisee in the parable. Would you call them liars and self-deceived if they said they kept all God's commandments blamelessly? I hope not because the scripture states they did in spite of you thinking it's not possible.

So you're saying you accept Luke 1:6 even though as you convey it, it contradicts what Jesus said in Luke 18:19 and what Paul wrote in Rom 3:23? Please place you call again.

A self-righteous admitted sinner rebuking me for not sinning like he does.

It's the self righteous that say they DON'T sin pal, so who is saying that here? You and the Pharisee obviously. Only some one of your self righteous attitude would pick a user name like yours.

 

[StanJ]

Stan,
In your opinion, does the parable of the sower support or refute OSAS?

As Jesus interpreted it for the Apostles, it clearly shows it does NOT support OSAS.

 

[StanJ]

If God is the Holy Root (I agree) and a person is "cut off" per Romans 11:22, then logically that person has been "cut off" from God, which gets you to the same place again. You've boxed yourself in now admitting that Christ is the root. Thanks!

You realize you need to actually show that 2 and 2 make 5 right?

 

[elohiym]

As Jesus interpreted it for the Apostles, it clearly shows it does NOT support OSAS.

I agree, which is why I don't believe the false doctrine OSAS.

 

[glorydaz]

This is a straw man that you put together and stuffed. I believe if you fall into a lifestyle of sin or you deny the faith you are at risk. That does not happen if you sneeze and swear. You do not know what we believe and do not care to listen so you have to fabricate. This is the last refuge of someone who has denied the evidence of sound exegesis.

At risk of what? You and your friends sure don't sound worried. I guess your "lifestyle" is above reproach, huh? Certainly you don't have an ounce of pride because you know what God thinks of pride, right? So, sneezing and swearing are alright, but what exactly isn't alright? How about wanting a fancy car? Is that alright while your neighbor can't even pay his rent? How about just a little bit of fudging on your taxes? Hmmm.... Golly, so many possibilities. :think:

 

[elohiym]

I rend to stay out of other discussions unless I see a blatant flaw, but you haven't defeated anything.

I addressed your claim in my response to Shasta. If you think you can refute my arguments in those posts, go for it.

I have never had a problem understanding God's clear word. v9 is the key, and reflects exactly what you convey.

I have conveyed that I repented, like the sinner in the story, and went home justified. You say I am not justified unless I keep sinning, but not too much, just occasionally. Meanwhile, I'm just wondering which of the ten commandments you break occasionally since several are death penalty offenses.

So you're saying you accept Luke 1:6 even though as you convey it, it contradicts what Jesus said in Luke 18:19 and what Paul wrote in Rom 3:23? Please place you call again.

So you're saying that you reject the unambiguous meaning of Luke 1:6 because you think Luke 18:19 and Romans 3:23 contradict it? All have sinned in a certain context. John's mother still had to make offerings for unintentional sins and uncleanness, but she served the law of God with her mind and didn't violate the commandments. It was not a violation of the law to become accidentally unclean, but it was still sin. She became guilty, but not wilfully, so she kept all God's commandments and ordinances. Yes, all have sinned in the context of the Mosaic ordinances that were in view. I've not denied that, just not read as much into it as you apparently have.

It's the self righteous that say they DON'T sin pal, so who is saying that here?

So you asked me if I sinned to try and trap me? That's okay. Now you are claiming I'm self-righteous because I don't commit idolatry any more? That's just wrong. You think I would only be a saved person if I occasionally committed idolatry? Shall we run through all ten commandments, Stan? You want me to be a murderer in order to be righteous? A thief? An adulterer? Are you those things in spite of all the warnings to repent from our Lord, Paul, and the other saints?

You and the Pharisee obviously.

My faith is nothing like the Pharisee's religion or yours. Paul warns you will not inherit the kingdom of God if you continue to occasional fulfil the lusts of your flesh. See Galatians 5:19-21.

Only some one of your self righteous attitude would pick a user name like yours.

It's from Psalm 82 and means a son of God (one of many). You think I shouldn't call myself a son of God when scripture tells me I am? How am I self righteous for acknowledging my sonship?

 

[heir]

Those who don't believe in OSAS, don't have a lot of faith in God's Word.

:up: and therefore, their conversation does do not becometh the gospel of Christ!

Philippians 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

 

[heir]

Since I am joined to Christ who is the head I am a member.

How did you get into the Body?

 

[heir]

You are under some misconceptions. I just abide in Christ.

When was there ever a moment when you trusted His faith and work instead of your own?

 

[heir]

This is a straw man that you put together and stuffed. I believe if you fall into a lifestyle of sin or you deny the faith you are at risk.

vs.

2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

 

[heir]

No one I know in my Church is living in fear of losing their salvation though we do not believe in OSAS.

That right there is a group of proud people with their chests puffed up.

 

[heir]

There is assurance and power for all whose heart is to continue with him. These scriptures affirm that He will also work in us to bring us home. However they do not address the case of a person who is in rebellion or who is rejecting the faith.

Paul's views on ultimate salvation are explained in Colossians 1:21-22.

First Paul identifies those he is writing to those who were unbelievers in the past

21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds

Then he describes their present state as believers

22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death,

Next he lays out God's purpose and plan for them in the future:

22...in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him,

If the passage stopped here the doctrine of OSAS would remain intact but Paul adds conditions which must be met if they are to receive the promised reward:

23 IF indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Paul says that in order to reach the promised reward we must continue in the faith. Let us look at the opposite choice. What if instead of meeting this condition we abandon our faith and deny the truth of the gospel? What happens then? Well, according to this verse we will NOT be among those who will be presented before him holy and unblamable, prepared for eternal fellowship.

Paul’s teaching about salvation plainly disagrees with the OSAS axiom that everyone who starts with Christ will inevitably continue to the end.

You're just another sad and classic example of one who confuses salvation which is a gift (Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV) with reward which if built on the foundation a wise master builder Paul laid is gold, silver, precious stones and if not: wood, hay, stubble. Take note~ whether gold,silver, precious stones, wood, hay stubble: still SAVED!

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

1 Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

1 Corinthians 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

 

[heir]

they don't seem to know Jesus is the authority to judge who will be saved or not.

Romans 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Not much hope for you seeing as you deny Paul's gospel.

 

[heir]

I love Paul, he is amazing to me. Here is one from Paul.

Rom. 11:20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

That's not talking about anyone in the Body of Christ as those who have trusted the Lord after hearing and believing the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation are saved and sealed. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV

 

[heir]

Here is another from Paul.

Col. 1:21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach- 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4464589&postcount=1042

 

[Lazy afternoon]

You're the one who has been predicting that I will be beheaded
some day. You're TOLs "Nostradamus."

It is only just that you receive all of your insults back in good measure.

You think you can say anything you like to anyone you like without you having to give account for it.

You are nothing but a big liar.

LA