No Longer A Christian
- Thread starter Granite
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elected4ever
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Balder
e4e ----You don't believe in killing people who intend to kill you? Read there holy book. They intend to kill you. It is there religion.
e4e ----You don't believe in killing people who intend to kill you? Read there holy book. They intend to kill you. It is there religion.
Balder
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I haven't read all of the Koran, but I've read those passages that give permission to kill "unbelievers." I think they're despicable and don't deserve to be in a "holy book."
But I also have known a number of Muslims (Sufis), and I lived for a year in a Muslim country, and they aren't all the bloodthirsty folks you think they are.
For instance, not one that I know would ever say, like you have just done, "All members of such and such a religion are fair game."
A despicable sentiment indeed, even more ruthless and "uninspired" than the statements in the Koran.
Peace be with you, e4e,
Balder
But I also have known a number of Muslims (Sufis), and I lived for a year in a Muslim country, and they aren't all the bloodthirsty folks you think they are.
For instance, not one that I know would ever say, like you have just done, "All members of such and such a religion are fair game."
A despicable sentiment indeed, even more ruthless and "uninspired" than the statements in the Koran.
Peace be with you, e4e,
Balder
wickwoman
New member
Dear Granite:
This quote reminded me of your current situation:
Do not form views in the world through either knowledge, virtuous conduct, or religious observances; likewise, avoid thinking of oneself as being either superior, inferior, or equal to others.
The wise let go of the “self� and being free of attachments they depend not on knowledge. Nor do they dispute opinions or settle into any view.
For those who have no wishes for either extremes of becoming or non-becoming, here or in another existence, there is no settling into the views held by others.
Nor do they form the least notion in regard to views seen, heard, or thought out. How could one influence those wise ones who do not grasp at any views?
-from the Sutta-nipata
This quote reminded me of your current situation:
Do not form views in the world through either knowledge, virtuous conduct, or religious observances; likewise, avoid thinking of oneself as being either superior, inferior, or equal to others.
The wise let go of the “self� and being free of attachments they depend not on knowledge. Nor do they dispute opinions or settle into any view.
For those who have no wishes for either extremes of becoming or non-becoming, here or in another existence, there is no settling into the views held by others.
Nor do they form the least notion in regard to views seen, heard, or thought out. How could one influence those wise ones who do not grasp at any views?
-from the Sutta-nipata
A lot of it's wishful thinking. Fundamentalism explains everything, lays it out for you. Cut and dry, black and white. People choose what they want to believe. It's a nice feeling, being part of the club.
And frankly, most Christians are never exposed to skepticism: either they shut off anything that sounds like criticism, or they're warned against listening to anything but the party line.
One Eyed Jack
New member
Originally posted by Sozo
Warm and fuzzie?
Maybe you sat on a church mouse.
Well, you know how quiet they are. Makes 'em easy to miss.
One Eyed Jack
New member
That's pretty much everybody, believers and unbelievers alike.
Maybe for some people. A non-conformist may feel differently.
I can't speak for most Christians, but the ones around here are exposed to plenty of skepticism.
Or maybe they have listened to it, and simply don't buy it.
"Or maybe they have listened to it, and simply don't buy it."
Exactly. Christians make a choice. It's simpler and doesn't challenge you if you keep going along for the ride.
It's extremely difficult to have a lengthy, rational discussion with a Christian, because they're the ones with a gun to their head. Christians can't even consider the possibility they might be wrong, lest they wind up in hell.
Exactly. Christians make a choice. It's simpler and doesn't challenge you if you keep going along for the ride.
It's extremely difficult to have a lengthy, rational discussion with a Christian, because they're the ones with a gun to their head. Christians can't even consider the possibility they might be wrong, lest they wind up in hell.
One Eyed Jack
New member
So anybody who fails to jump on the skeptical bandwagon is simple-minded, to your way of thinking? Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what it sounds like you're saying here.
Sure they can, but you have to give them the leeway to form their own conclusions. I don't see you doing that.
"So anybody who fails to jump on the skeptical bandwagon is simple-minded, to your way of thinking? Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what it sounds like you're saying here."
Not at all. I wouldn't put C.S. Lewis down as "simple," as an example.
"Sure they can, but you have to give them the leeway to form their own conclusions. I don't see you doing that."
What "leeway" can a consistent Christian possibly have? If they color outside the lines they go to hell. If they entertain the possibility that they be misguided, misled, or wrong, they'll wind up in hell. There is no other conclusion for a consistent Christian: he is right, those who do not believe are wrong. Period.
Not at all. I wouldn't put C.S. Lewis down as "simple," as an example.
"Sure they can, but you have to give them the leeway to form their own conclusions. I don't see you doing that."
What "leeway" can a consistent Christian possibly have? If they color outside the lines they go to hell. If they entertain the possibility that they be misguided, misled, or wrong, they'll wind up in hell. There is no other conclusion for a consistent Christian: he is right, those who do not believe are wrong. Period.
One Eyed Jack
New member
Well, then what are you saying?
I'd say that would depend on how far outside the lines they go, and which picture they're coloring when they do it. I certainly don't condemn to hell everyone who doesn't espouse my beliefs 100% down the line, and neither do most Christians. If that's how they were at your church, I can see why you left.
Not necessarily. A Christian can certainly entertain the possibility they they're misguided, misled, or wrong, and still come to the conclusion that they're not. In many cases, such an event strengthens their faith. Surely you can't be suggesting they go to hell for such a thing.
Ultimately this is correct, but only in application to the basic tenets of Christianity. Whatever baggage may be attached is still subject to approval, as far as I'm concerned.
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"Well, then what are you saying?"
To which I'll repeat: It's simpler and doesn't challenge you if you keep going along for the ride.
"I certainly don't condemn to hell everyone who doesn't espouse my beliefs 100% down the line, and neither do most Christians."
Sure. They just write off anyone who's not a card-carrying Christian.
"A Christian can certainly entertain the possibility they they're misguided, misled, or wrong, and still come to the conclusion that they're not."
And supposing, of course, that they do not...well, in that case they're not part of the club anymore. Thinking for yourself and reading "dangerous books" can have repercussions.
To which I'll repeat: It's simpler and doesn't challenge you if you keep going along for the ride.
"I certainly don't condemn to hell everyone who doesn't espouse my beliefs 100% down the line, and neither do most Christians."
Sure. They just write off anyone who's not a card-carrying Christian.
"A Christian can certainly entertain the possibility they they're misguided, misled, or wrong, and still come to the conclusion that they're not."
And supposing, of course, that they do not...well, in that case they're not part of the club anymore. Thinking for yourself and reading "dangerous books" can have repercussions.
On Fire
New member
My faith has nothing to do with wishful thoughts. And I don't know what you really mean by "fundamentalism" but I know a lot of Christians who have many questions so it's not as cut and dry as you think.
People choose what they want to believe.....applies to Christians and non-Christians alike. But being part of the "club" is no walk in the park.
Never exposed to skepticism? :ha: Which do you think is easier: having faith in an invisible God or walking away?
One Eyed Jack
New member
Well, I'll just have to disagree with you then.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. To suggest that we only care about other Christians is simply false, and goes against everything Jesus did. He came for the lost.
Hey, if they think everybody else is misguided, misled, or wrong, it's not like they're going to want to stay in the club anyway, so what's the problem?
It hasn't hurt me any. Maybe a few leery looks from some of the older folks, but that's about it.
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