The Berean
Well-known member
It's kind of odd that the Chicago White Sox had a longer World Series title drought (1917-2005, 88 years) than the Red Sox (1918-2004, 86 years) yet they got like 1% of the media hype. :idunno:
NFL 2014
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It's kind of odd that the Chicago White Sox had a longer World Series title drought (1917-2005, 88 years) than the Red Sox (1918-2004, 86 years) yet they got like 1% of the media hype. :idunno:
The Berean
Well-known member
That was a CRAZY comeback, down 3-0 in the series with Mariano Rivera on the mound in the bottom of the 9th inning to close out game 4.
My wife grew up in Pittsburgh, but got her undergraduate from Simmon's College in Boston, then her jd from BU Law School, then worked at Boston City Hall for 5 years.
Needless to say, she's a huge Red Sox fan.
What you say is true. She was more excited after the Red Sox came back from 0-3 against the Yankees and won, then when the Sox beat the Cardinals to win the World Series.
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I think it was mostly because of the 86' World Series, the 67' World Series, and 75' World Series.
The White Sox weren't losing World Series' in heartbreaking fashion like the Red Sox were. The Red Sox lost all the aforementioned World Series' in 7 games, and if you remember, they had the champagne popped right before Buckner did what he did in 86'
I know nobody's perfect, and Rivera was probably the greatest closer of all time, but not only did Rivera blow game 4 against the Red Sox in the 2004 ALCS, he also blew game 7 of the 2001 World Series against Arizona.
Both times Rivera entered the bottom of the 9th with the Yankees up a run (game 7 against Arizona), and both times Rivera not only blew a save, both times the Yankees lost the game with him still on the mound.
The Berean
Well-known member
So I'm thinking about the upcoming battle between the surging Pats and the solid Broncos...and I think that it's really something to be watching two of the best to ever play the position going at each other the way we've been able to over the years. I tend to be harder on Brady than I actually feel like being, mostly as a response to the irrational attacks on Peyton and the peculiar blindness with which Tom is approached, a thing that reminds me of how Favre was pawed over in his day.
But stepping back and really looking at them, NFL fans are being treated to something as rare and exciting as the old Bird/Magic rivalry once was and it will be a sad day when that rivalry draws to a close.
It's hard to imagine a qb running a coach's system better than Brady. And it's hard to imagine a better coach on the field than Manning. In fact, I don't think there have been. Put Brady or Manning on Montanna's teams and I'm not sure they couldn't match him. Take either to build your franchise around and who could reasonably argue against your choice?
Sometimes it's enough just to sit back and watch and appreciate how good we have it. Today is that day for me.
But stepping back and really looking at them, NFL fans are being treated to something as rare and exciting as the old Bird/Magic rivalry once was and it will be a sad day when that rivalry draws to a close.
It's hard to imagine a qb running a coach's system better than Brady. And it's hard to imagine a better coach on the field than Manning. In fact, I don't think there have been. Put Brady or Manning on Montanna's teams and I'm not sure they couldn't match him. Take either to build your franchise around and who could reasonably argue against your choice?
Sometimes it's enough just to sit back and watch and appreciate how good we have it. Today is that day for me.
I agree Peyton/Brady is rare an exciting, but I disagree comparing them to Bird/Magic.
Magic won 5 championships, and played in 9 total
Bird won 3 championships, and played in 5 total.
Bird and Magic met 3 times head to head in the Finals, and either Bird's Celtics or Magic's Lakers were in the Finals 10 STRAIGHT years in a row winning 8 of them.
Neither Bird nor Magic ever switched teams.
Brady has 3 championships, and played in 5 total
Peyton has 1 championship, and played in 3 total.
Magic just by himself played in more Finals than Brady and Peyton combined have played in Super Bowls.
Magic's and Bird's championships are double Brady's and Peyton's.
Another factor is that Brady and Peyton play in the same conference, so they never got to meet for a championship like Bird and Magic did. I've watched a lot of AFC Championships, yes they're exciting, but not even close to watching a Super Bowl.
Roger Staubach and Terry Bradshaw are more comparable to Bird/Magic than Peyton/Brady.
Staubach won 2, and played in 4, Bradshaw won 4 while playing in 4, and they faced each other head to head 2 times. Their teams won 6 Super Bowls in 9 years.
Staubach/Bradshaw - 6 championships, 8 appearances.
shame on you both for even trying to compare basketball to football which is the only team sport
how can we respect anyone who does that?
It does in the sense that two great competitors with a great deal of skill are leading teams against one another with a heightened public and talking head interest associated, which was really what I was thinking of and not literally match up parallels.
Their franchise wasn't faced with the quandary that faced my Colts. But by all means try to take another irrational shot at Peyton.
Those two teams were stacked with talent in a way few NFL teams maintain, especially since Brady and Manning have been in the league.
I've seen more than a few championship games in conference that were much more exciting than the following Super Bowl.
In that day, maybe. Today, not so much. The closest thing we have would be Manning/Brady. There's more press on that than any other rivalry I can think of in pro sports. It's handled a lot like the old Bird/Magic rivalry.
Didn't watch it given I've watched every Super Bowl. I've addressed the team failure in the last one. And I've noted more than once the unassailable fact that Manning's numbers are better than Brady's in season and in the post season too. Put any qb under enough pressure and they'll stink it up. If you don't have two seconds to get the ball out of your hand you're not going to have a very good performance.
And yes, when it comes to Peyton, you're irrational. And I think I know why.
You act like I'm the only person who thinks Peyton Manning is a choker.
Just google "Peyton Manning is a choker", and there are 31,000 results.
Here are some of the titles of the articles and blogs just from the first two pages. I didn't provide the links because I knew you wouldn't read them.
1) Peyton Manning's legacy = BIGGEST PLAYOFF CHOKER IN NFL HISTORY!
2) It's official: Manning all-time greatest . . . choke artist
3) Is Peyton Manning a choker?
4) Peyton Manning: Yep, Still A Choker
5) Peyton Manning: professional playoff choker
6) Super Bowl 48: Peyton Manning Cements Legacy As Postseason Choker
7) Peyton Manning is the ultimate choker
8) Peyton Manning is the biggest playoff choker since Dan Marino
9) Is Peyton Manning currently the biggest choker in the NFL?
And last but not least, my favorite:
10) Bigger choker in the playoffs? Peyton Manning or Peyton Kershaw?
So, what's your explanation for the gazillions of sites, articles, and blogs about Peyton Manning being a postseason choker?
Because you think I'm really Jim Irsay posting on TOL under the username tetelestai?
That must have been a fun time! I'm sure you remember this cover.
That 1979 Pirates team was the last team to win a World Series Game 7 on the road.
The Giants may do the same tonight. Bumgarner is on the mound with a lead.
No I haven't. But you're a good summation. People who ignore facts to suit their bias. A lot of reasons for it, from people with different teams and qbs they want in the consideration to people who for one reason or another just don't care for him. And some who likely haven't looked into it seriously.
Because I don't doubt their existence and they can't answer the facts I've presented any more than you do or have.
Peyton actually has performed better at his position than has Brady in both the regular and post season at his position, as the numbers reflect. That you enjoy that headline reflects something else.
Supra. Doesn't surprise me at all for any number of reasons.
No, I just think you're invested in a position that doesn't bear scrutiny. It happens. Especially in sports where emotion plays a big role for so many.
And the funny thing is I wasn't a Manning guy. He was from Tennessee, for crying out loud. :chuckle: I remember the talking heads saying, as between Manning and Leaf, that Manning was the more NFL ready, but with limited upside.
I think a lot of those people have begrudgingly moved forward from that position, but it still colors their opinions to some extent and they find a reason to asterisk a career that doesn't merit it in a way they don't Marino, who only got to one and faltered. Peyton's demonstrated that with protection he'll kill you and with any sort of chance he'll beat you more often than not. But as with any signal caller, he can't transcend his team. That's why Montana didn't win it in KC. It's why Brady couldn't in his last two against the lesser Manning.
No shame in that. And no argument against Peyton's or Tom's greatness either. The Montana yardstick is partially an illusion created by one of the greatest collections of talent assembled in professional football...even if I can't let go of Joe as the best my eyes tell me I've ever seen.
:e4e:
Regular season yes, I agree.
For some reason you think stats are the only thing that matters.
In the last two Super Bowls Peyton has thrown 3 interceptions, and two of them were Pick-Sixes. The interception against the Saints was with his team trailing by 7, the Colts on the Saints 37 yard line, and a little over three minutes left.
In the AFC Championship Game against the Ravens in overtime, Manning threw a horrible interception that led to the Ravens winning the game.
Brady never did anything like that in the Super Bowl, or AFC Championship.
You can blame the Bronco's defense for giving up a long pass to cause overtime, but it doesn't matter. In the situation Peyton was in, he choked big time. Same thing against the Saints. I don't care what led to the situation, in the situation, Peyton choked.
Montana played in 4 Super Bowls, threw 11 TD's and ZERO interceptions. Montana didn't choke against the Cowboys when he threw the TD pass to Clark, and he didn't choke against the Bengals when he led his team down the field for a winning drive in the Super Bowl. Peyton Manning has never done anything close in the postseason.
The statistics don't mean squat when you throw really bad interceptions late in really big games.
Jerry Shugart makes the exact same arguments for Tony Romo that you make for Peyton Manning. You guys both throw a bunch of stats around while ignoring the elephant in the room.
Daniel1611
New member
Peyton Manning is a better QB than Brady. Brady is not one of the greatest QBs. He is a wuss, he pads his stats and the team cheats. In my book, Manning is a Superbowl champion and Brady isn't. The Patriot's superbowls are lies. Brady is a good QB but I wouldn't mention him along side the all time greats like Montana, Bradshaw and Peyton Manning.
Belicheat and Brady won 3 Super Bowls in 4 years, but then they were caught cheating.
Since they were caught cheating, they have won 0 Super Bowls in 9 years.
Manning doesn't cheat, but has a tendency to throw really bad interceptions in big games.
Therefore, Joe Montana is king.
You have to. And Bradshaw was a winner, but he isn't talked about as the greatest at the position by many to any seriously. You underrate Brady, but I've done that in the past so I can't be too hard on you. Montana, at least in most of those SBs threw to the greatest WR of all time and a number two who would have been the primary WR on just about any other team at the time, before we get to a great pass blocking OL, a great all purpose back with soft hands and one of the better receiving tight ends of his era. And he played with all that knowing he had one of the more dominant defenses in the NFL.
The more I think about it the more I'm inclined to say that Manning or Brady could duplicate his success put in place of him and maybe outdo it in Peyton's case, given that like Marino he has a very small window of time in which he gets rid of the ball and that tends to hold down injury. Joe moved and held the ball and that broke him down earlier. I think Peyton gets Joe's rings and Steve's too. Brady plays a lot like Joe and I'm not sure he'd hold up to the beating that kind of play invites, but maybe. I don't know which of the two move better in the pocket. I'd have to go back and revisit some tape.
It holds up the same post season, though as with most qbs his playoff stats aren't as stellar. Better competition and fewer games will tend to do that.
It's the only objective way to understand how someone plays the position instead of conflating overall team play with it. I literally broke down every playoff game both guys played and what I found was that both had two or three games where they were awful. When Peyton was awful his team tended to lose. Brady's worst game came against SD and they won it anyway. Good for him, but not on him.
As always, you cherry pick to get what you're looking for. He hasn't been in only two Super Bowls. But we both know why you pick the last two. Because the Seattle game was horrible and because, though he played well against the Saints, he threw a pick that was returned for an int.
Right. He threw an interception that was returned for a td in a game what was essentially even. But he didn't have a bad day at the position. Here are his stats.
P. Manning 31/45, 333 yds, 7.4 avg., 1 td 1 int., 88.5 qbr
He set up another td run of four yards by Addai. Those are good numbers. But Brees was better on that day, as was his team.
D. Brees 32/39, 288 yds, 7.4 avg., 2 td 0 int , 114.5 qbr
And that opportunistic Saints defense led the league in take always that year. In fact, Sharper set an NFL record for interception returns that year. In route to that SB win they put up over five hundred yards against the second ranked defense in the NFL before forcing five fumbles and an int by the white hot Favre and Vikings. Brees was the highest rated qb that year and as dominant as they were in the playoffs that SB was, as you rightly note, a tight affair. I think both teams played well. And the Saints ultimately did to Peyton and company what they'd done in route to the game, win on solid offensive play and a great defensive turn.
Should I just counter with a handful of great playoff games and stats? And you know what? Both Peyton and Brady have had bad performances during playoffs. And in the regular season for all sorts of reasons, including just being off their game.
Two games ago people were talking about the decline of Tom. A game ago they stopped talking. Talk is cheap. Myopic approaches and knee jerk contexts are too.
He did it with even less pressure, a la that San Diego game and more than once.
It depends on whether you want a rational, reasonable understanding of the game or you're after something else.
Stupid, ham fisted nonsense.
No, he threw in int. And every HOF qb has done that. Most of them have done it in the playoffs. If they're lucky they win anyway, if they aren't they don't.
That's true and it's one of the reasons I've always held him as the greatest to play the position. I think he was meticulous and unflappable, but I also wonder how much of that had to do with the team he had around him. It's easier to play a game when you know your offensive line will buy you the time you need and your defense will hold you in games if you're off.
Also, he played objectively, observably inferior teams in those big games. A bit of good fortune.
Almost no one has had anything like Montana's success. But the whole choke business is only evidence of your bias, whatever the root.
Emotional claptrap.
Troy Aikman likes Romo. Most people who view the game objectively do too. He's a really, really good qb.
Rather, you ignore a SB MVP and every game or stat that won't allow for you myopic misrepresentations.
You realize their winning percentage actually went up after Spygate, right?
And if we want to talk "cheating" how about the 'roids that helped build the Steel Curtain?
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