ECT Moment of Salvation Compared to Water Baptism

God's Truth

New member
No doubt at all God keeps His word ... but .... lot's of different beliefs, opinions with what God's word says .... i.e. interpretations, theologies etc. about many beliefs. The differences are what people discuss. Because we have differences of what one believes ... does that mean we know for sure that one is "saved" and the other "not saved"? I do not question who is saved and who is not saved, because I do not know .... only God knows ... and in the end .... nobody will really know until Jesus returns and it actually happens.

A person can know for sure if they are saved now and will be saved when Jesus comes again.

The saved are in heaven with Jesus.

Christ is living in the saved now, and scriptures that support the first resurrection, that of our spirits living in Jesus, before we die a physical death…


1 Corinthians 6:17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit.

John 6:56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him.

Ephesians 2:6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

Colossians 3:1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

Colossians 3:3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.

Colossians 1:13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,

Romans 8:9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.
 

God's Truth

New member
I generally do not respond to crass statements, it's futile.

Welcome to TOL. I just want to tell you how to quote someone you want to reply to.

Click on 'Reply With Quote' and say what you would like under the post you are replying to, then click on 'Post Quick Reply'.

I hope that helps.
 

God's Truth

New member
faith and grace ..... faith was a "given", referring to Adam and Eve onwards of those who trusted in God.

Grace

All through the pages of Scripture, grace is portrayed as God’s unmerited favor. It is God’s willingness to save us when we don’t deserve it.

Faith

faith is a trust relationship with God

So, those who Trusted God in the OT and NT were saved by faith under grace, and so are we.

The old law was NOT based on faith.

Galatians 3:12 The law is not based on faith;


If someone wanted to be a child of God's, they had to get circumcised and do the other purification/ceremonial works.

However, God did not like it that a person could sin, give a sin offering, but not really be sorry for their sins. There were Jews who had faith and did the purification works, and there were Jews who did NOT have faith but did the purification works. God said that He was going to make a new covenant one day.

We have the new covenant since Jesus; and, it is a covenant that is based on faith, living faith. Living faith is faith with obedience; dead faith is faith alone.
 

God's Truth

New member
The new covenant is based on faith and it is the covenant that Jesus preached before Paul.

It is the same covenant that Paul preached.

Jesus preached to believe, have faith in him to be saved.

Paul preached believe in, have faith in Jesus to be saved.
 

God's Truth

New member
TRUE

Genesis 6:8

Hebrew

Str Translit Hebrew English Morph
5146 [e] wə-nō-aḥ וְנֹ֕חַ But Noah Noun
4672 [e] mā-ṣā מָ֥צָא found Verb
2580 [e] ḥên חֵ֖ן grace Noun
5869 [e] bə-‘ê-nê בְּעֵינֵ֥י in the eyes Noun
3068 [e] Yah-weh. יְהוָֽה׃ of the LORD

favor = grace

KJV:

Exodus 33:12
HEB: וְגַם־ מָצָ֥אתָ חֵ֖ן בְּעֵינָֽי׃
NAS: found favor in My sight.'
KJV: and thou hast also found grace in my sight.
INT: have also found favor my sight


Numbers 32:5
HEB: אִם־ מָצָ֤אנוּ חֵן֙ בְּעֵינֶ֔יךָ יֻתַּ֞ן
NAS: we have found favor in your sight,
KJV: they, if we have found grace in thy sight,
INT: If have found favor your sight be given

Ruth 2:2
HEB: אֲשֶׁ֥ר אֶמְצָא־ חֵ֖ן בְּעֵינָ֑יו וַתֹּ֥אמֶר
NAS: I may find favor. And she said
KJV: I shall find grace. And she said

1 Samuel 20:3
HEB: כִּֽי־ מָצָ֤אתִי חֵן֙ בְּעֵינֶ֔יךָ וַיֹּ֛אמֶר
NAS: that I have found favor in your sight,
KJV: that I have found grace in thine eyes;
INT: for have found favor your sight has said

Many others

Finding favor in God's eyes after Jesus shed his blood makes for a reconciliation to God; it makes one perfect and holy. Jesus' blood had to be shed.
 

Danoh

New member
The old law was NOT based on faith.

Galatians 3:12 The law is not based on faith;


If someone wanted to be a child of God's, they had to get circumcised and do the other purification/ceremonial works.

However, God did not like it that a person could sin, give a sin offering, but not really be sorry for their sins. There were Jews who had faith and did the purification works, and there were Jews who did NOT have faith but did the purification works. God said that He was going to make a new covenant one day.

We have the new covenant since Jesus; and, it is a covenant that is based on faith, living faith. Living faith is faith with obedience; dead faith is faith alone.

Paul's point in that passage is that the Law was not of faith ALONE.

The Law was of faith, but of works that demonstrated that faith.

Romans 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

In other words, they were mere pew warmers. They walked the talk, but did not really believe the Law.

As a result, we read of that exact same problem here...

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Romans 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

They had not believed from the heart what they had professed they believed by their outward works.

Outward, they had a form of godliness.

Inward? Dead man's bones.

Remind you of anyone on TOL?

Rom. 5: 6-8 towards ya.
 

God's Truth

New member
faith and grace ..... faith was a "given", referring to Adam and Eve onwards of those who trusted in God.

Grace

All through the pages of Scripture, grace is portrayed as God’s unmerited favor. It is God’s willingness to save us when we don’t deserve it.

Faith

faith is a trust relationship with God

So, those who Trusted God in the OT and NT were saved by faith under grace, and so are we.

People were ALWAYS favored by God when they believed and obeyed Him.

But no one was made perfect and reconciled to God until they were washed in the blood of Jesus.
 

God's Truth

New member
Paul's point in that passage is that the Law was not of faith ALONE.
No. Paul says it was not on faith at all but by the doing of the purification works.

The Law was of faith, but of works that demonstrated that faith.

Believe what is plainly written, and that is that the law did NOT require faith.

Romans 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

...and not even Abraham was made perfect until he had faith in Jesus' shed blood on the cross.

Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

In other words, they were mere pew warmers. They walked the talk, but did not really believe the Law.

No, it means they never had faith; they did the purification works and didn't have faith. They were not really sorry for their sins, but they did the purification works.

As a result, we read of that exact same problem here...

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Romans 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

They had not believed from the heart what they had professed they believed by their outward works.

Outward, they had a form of godliness.

Inward? Dead man's bones.

Remind you of anyone on TOL?

It does.

However, I do want to persist in the truth that the Jews who did not have faith, they did not have faith that Jesus' blood would clean them; they did not recognize Jesus as speaking the words of God and they wanted to keep doing the works of the law/purification works to clean themselves.
 

turbosixx

New member
Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Baptism is a work.

Does the bible call it a work or man?

Also, does that verse say "without" works?
 

turbosixx

New member
No matter what you say, grace is all that is required

It doesn't matter at all what I say, what matters is what God says. What does God's word say?

I would suggest to you that man changes the language and therefore changes the meaning. Consider this:
The bible tells us belief is a work. If we go by the logic that works are not required, then belief isn't even required.
 
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