turbosixx
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Eph. 2:14For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility
One of the both isn't the nation Israel?
If not, what constitutes the nation Israel?
ECT Moment of Salvation Compared to Water Baptism
- Thread starter turbosixx
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Eph. 2:14For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility
One of the both isn't the nation Israel?
If not, what constitutes the nation Israel?
God's Truth
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Fallen Israel INDIVIDUALS were bound over to the SAME PLACE AS GENTILES.
The remnant Israel were the lost sheep who were already saved by God but now had to go through Jesus to remain God's.
"They were yours and you gave them to me...
Hi and the ONLY people who were BAPTIZED were those who DROWN during Noah's time !!
Baptism during Jesus and the 12 disciple's ministry was with WATER / HUPOR anthe switched to Holy Spirit POWER IN Acts 1:5 , and then SWITCHED to a BAPTIZER called the Holy Spirit as written in Eph 4:5 " ONE BAPTISMA which means ONE WHO BAPTIZES !!
dan p
turbosixx
New member
Where are you getting that definition?
baptisma: (the result of) a dipping or sinking
Original Word: βάπτισμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: baptisma
Phonetic Spelling: (bap'-tis-mah)
Short Definition: the rite or ceremony of baptism
Definition: the rite or ceremony of baptism.
God's Truth
New member
Are you mocking the scripture that I gave you that says Noah was saved by water?!
1 Peter 3:20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
and, think carefully...the, Holy Spirit, is, spoken of as, WATER.
John 7:38 To the one who believes in Me, it is just as the Scripture has said: ‘Streams of living water will flow from within him.’” 39 He was speaking about the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were later to receive. For the Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified
Obeying Jesus is always right, it is always right before water baptism and after water baptism.
The baptism by water is a ceremony of what the Holy Spirit does
Hi and that dictionary gave you part of the answer , that , that Greek word is not BAPTISM , for the Greek ytext says it is BAPTISMA !!
Check Acts 19:4 and tell me what it means ?
dan p
God's Truth
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Those who are saved are submerged and filled with the Holy Spirit.
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In Ephesians 2:11, Israel is a Covenant nation and is thus "nigh unto God."
In contrast, by the time of verse 13, Israel is now "were nigh" as a nation formerly under God, and God is now dealing with individuals of all nations absent of any covenants; ordinances; etc.
In other words, in His wrath, God has once more temporarily turned from Israel.
This time, however, during the interim between His temporarily turning from them in His wrath and His actually pouring out His wrath prior to His turning back to them to bless them, He has not only turned to the Gentiles, but down so absent of doing so through a redeemed Israel, as Prophesied.
Instead, He is not only now out among the Gentiles during Israel's temporary fall, but is using His being out among the Gentiles through Israel's fall, to provoke INDIVIDUAL Israelites to come after this GENTILE salvation - for He is not willing that they should perish during this temporary turn of His from Israel as a nation.
All that is where Romans 9 thru 11 comes in.
Especially this here...
Romans 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Your question fails to see the answer it has been given, due to your having failed to see the above - which was why I recommended you re-read the chapters I gave, and in the order I gave them to you in - Acts 7; Romans 1 thru 3, and then Ephesians 2.
Acts 7 and Romans 1 thru 3 are the lens thru which all the rest of all this and all.its seeming discrepancies begin to be clearly understood.
And Acts 7 itself, is understood through the lens of Romans 1 thru 3.
(Specifucally, Romans 1:18 thru 3:31).
_______________
Note:
In the view that I and other MADs hold to outside of most, not all, MADs on here, Ephesians 2 is nothing more than the sense of Romans 1 thru 3 preached by Paul to people beyond those who he had preached the essentials of Romans 1 thru 3 to, as in Galatians 2 and 3, for example - which is also in light of Israel's former status.
One problem with all this is that it does not really lend itself to a soundbyte approach - especially one not only continually started and stopped, but continually interrupted not only by various in oppostion, but by various who hold a different view, including the view I hold.
Try cooking a minute by not only continually turn on and turning off, and letting cool the stove and starting over, but all the while changing and mixing the ingredients - you end up at a very....long wait...only to have to...throw much...if not all of it...out :chuckle:
To your credit though, turbbo, you continue to prove able to take criticism from others no matter how gracious or how vile towards you.
Til then, Rom. 14:5 towards ya.
Romans 5:6-8.
Right Divider
Body part
With regards to Israel and not the body of Christ.
For the body of Christ people are baptized BY the Holy Spirit INTO the body without water.
Right Divider
Body part
Both of God's program have Israelite's and Gentiles in them. Both His plans for earth and heaven which will be joined in Christ in the future.
Eph 1:10 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:10) That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:
It's too bad that you and Churchianity try to force these together before God's time.
Right Divider
Body part
I don't have a perspective, I just believe the Bible.
Matt 21:43 (AKJV/PCE)
(21:43) Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Luke 12:32 (AKJV/PCE)
(12:32) Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
Rev 21:24-26 (AKJV/PCE)
(21:24) And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. (21:25) And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. (21:26) And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
In the end, the nations of the world will serve Israel and their King just as prophecy said:
Isa 60:15-22 (AKJV/PCE)
(60:15) Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through [thee], I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations. (60:16) Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD [am] thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob. (60:17) For brass I will bring gold, and for iron I will bring silver, and for wood brass, and for stones iron: I will also make thy officers peace, and thine exactors righteousness. (60:18) Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor destruction within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise. (60:19) The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory. (60:20) Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended. (60:21) Thy people also [shall be] all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. (60:22) A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the LORD will hasten it in his time.
Isaiah parallels Revelation 21, which is after the new Jerusalem arrives.
Yep to that much.
Rom. 1:18 thru 3:20.
In the spirit of Rom. 14:5; in memory of 5:6-8.
turbosixx
New member
Me too.
turbosixx
New member
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I'm quite familiar with those books and after reading your response I still stand by my question.
What constitutes the nation of Israel? 100%? 90%? 50%? Leadership?
The gospel was to Israel first then the Gentile. The gospel began with John the Baptist. Mk. 1:1. Jesus only went to Israel. The 12 and Paul went to Israel first. Since some individual Jews and not all accepted Christ, did that prevent the new covenant from being established? Even though the priesthood has changed forcing a change in law. Even though Jesus’ blood was shed for the new covenant. Even though anyone can be a heir to the promise and on and on.
In chapter 11, who are the broken off branches?
I agree, it's tough to get thoughts across on a forum.
I appreciate that.
Perhaps you've simply gone so long having solved for so much in your own mind and by your own reasoning that a soundbyte here and there is not really going to accomplish the major overhaul that is so obvious you are in need of so much on.
I mean, Israel was a unique agency nation God Himself formed.
You ever see that great old war classic "The Dirty Dozen"?
Where when one of them screws up, they are all made to suffer equally. And by the same token, where one of them accomplishes a major milestone; all of them are blessed equally.
THAT is Israel in Scripture - Daniel Chapter Nine.
Not some preconceived notion of one's own of a 10% or even of a 99% or what have you :chuckle:
You say you are "familiar with those books."
That right there is one of your errors.
For I was not referring to this or that book or chapter, rather, to the result of the minutest of things one often misses when they fail to revisit "those books" again - and again - and again - and especially after someone has asserted a thing that only a revisit of "those books" might allow only with said go round once more, if not after many more after that one.
We're talking The Scripture.
Wherein, often, even just a comma or a semi-colon, or one word or another missed during previous readings, only sheds the light intended, with one's awareness of such "jots" and "tittles" only after one more time around in The Book.
Not to mention the poor respect that displays towards the person who took the time to lay a thing out to you.
I don't particularly care for the impatience of some towards you, but at the same time, they did put in the time in their posts to you.
You owe them at least that much a debt of gratitude, in kind.
Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, 17:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. 17:12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.
Manners are all well and good, turbo.
Time now for you to step up to the plate and be "more noble..."
Long time now.
Rom. 14:5; 5:6-8.
Right Divider
Body part
Then why would you ask "From your perspective, what constitutes the nation of Israel?"?
Is that not totally clear in scripture?
God's Truth
New member
Jesus' BODY brings them both together.
God's Truth
New member
Jesus was still ALIVE and did not yet give his Spirit but his words and Spirit are for those who obey, Jew or Gentile.
Hi and where a verse that explains what you wrote above ??
In Acts 1:2 is after His resurrection !!
And then the Holy Spirit was to be given in Acts 1:5 and this BAPTIZO is with the POWER OF THE Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit was promised in Joel 3:28 and Gentiles were NOT invited , where do you get that AT ??
dan p
turbosixx
New member
I agree all this important and I do pay attention to those things but this is the problem I see. People are paying TOO much attention to those things and giving them too much weight. Concepts are built upon “jots” and “tittles” and are used to explain away scriptures that state the opposite outright. Especially in the case of mad.
God gave us his word in a manner that we can understand it, IF we are honest with ourselves and put aside our agendas. If someone tells me a passage means such and such, and I can’t find anything else in scripture to support such a notion, I will reject it for what I can find support for.
As for respect, I have only spoken when been spoken too. I also will take day to ponder what the other one has said. I don’t feel I’ve been shown the same courtesy but that’s ok.