ECT Moment of Salvation Compared to Water Baptism

[DAN P]

I looked at a several different versions and they all say "all nations".

When we see who has been added the body by hearing the gospel, it's a bunch of different nations.

Hi and most of Greek words have MANY DIFFERENT English words can be used in any translation , and just check all the Translations and see !!

In John 11:48 , it says , and the Romans shall come and take away BOTH OUR PLACE AND NATION / ETHNOS !


So tell me what NATION / ETHNOS means in verse 48 , and is it take away our place Aand GENTILES !!

It means take away ouR PLACE and JEWISH NATION !!

The same goes for verse 50 and 51 !!

dan p

 

[turbosixx]

Hi and most of Greek words have MANY DIFFERENT English words can be used in any translation , and just check all the Translations and see !!

In John 11:48 , it says , and the Romans shall come and take away BOTH OUR PLACE AND NATION / ETHNOS !


So tell me what NATION / ETHNOS means in verse 48 , and is it take away our place Aand GENTILES !!

It means take away ouR PLACE and JEWISH NATION !!

The same goes for verse 50 and 51 !!

dan p

I checked the translations I trust and none of them say anything other than "all nations". Are you saying they are wrong?


I agree, v 48 is talking about the Jewish nation.
Jesus said make disciples of all nations, that is everyone.
The parallel passage says "all creation". That is everyone.

Am I missing your point?

 

[DAN P]

I checked the translations I trust and none of them say anything other than "all nations". Are you saying they are wrong?


I agree, v 48 is talking about the Jewish nation.
Jesus said make disciples of all nations, that is everyone.
The parallel passage says "all creation". That is everyone.

Am I missing your point?

Hi and and you are as John 11:48 , 50 , 51 are written !!

Remember 2 Tim 2:15 and also that translations are not INSPIRED or that means you believe in DOUBLE INSPIRATION or why do all these translation are DIFFERENT !!

That is why I always look at the Greek text FIRST !!

dan p

 

[Right Divider]

Hi and and you are as John 11:48 , 50 , 51 are written !!

Remember 2 Tim 2:15 and also that translations are not INSPIRED or that means you believe in DOUBLE INSPIRATION or why do all these translation are DIFFERENT !!

That is why I always look at the Greek text FIRST !!

dan p

You need to trust God to preserver His Word. You don't have the "original" manuscripts in any language.

 

[Danoh]

I checked the translations I trust and none of them say anything other than "all nations". Are you saying they are wrong?


I agree, v 48 is talking about the Jewish nation.
Jesus said make disciples of all nations, that is everyone.
The parallel passage says "all creation". That is everyone.

Am I missing your point?

Translations of any ONE word, or even a phrase, is NOT how ANY doctrine is properly studied out.

Rather, a thing is studied out Doctrinally.

Huge...difference.

ANY MADist worth his or her salt should know this most Basic of Study Principles.

And most on here do just that.

Like when, say, RD or heir or Tam, or steko lay out all those passages they each assert points to the one thing they are asserting - THAT is a DOCTRINAL studying out/laying out of a thing.

Not that one might agree or not with the assertion being asserted - but THAT is how a thing is studied out/ laid out...

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, 17:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. 17:12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

And so on...

Rom. 5:8; 14:5.

 

[DAN P]

You need to trust God to preserver His Word. You don't have the "original" manuscripts in any language.

Hi and I believe that God's word is there and that is why many devote their life to study what Hebrew and Greek word mean !!

There is the TEXTUS RECEPTUS

the MAJORITY TEXT

THE STEPHEN'S TEXT

THE BYZANTINE TEXT


Then there are 5 more texts called :

THE MINORITY TEXT

THE ALEXANDRIAN TEXT

TEE WESTCOTT TEXT AND HORT TEXT

THE NESTLE TEXT

THE NESTLE - ALAND TEXT

I like the TEXTUS RECEPTUS and use the KJV with the Greek text and use the Greek text on-line !!

dan p

 

[Right Divider]

Hi and I believe that God's word is there and that is why many devote their life to study what Hebrew and Greek word mean !!

There is the TEXTUS RECEPTUS

the MAJORITY TEXT

THE STEPHEN'S TEXT

THE BYZANTINE TEXT

Then there are 5 more texts called :

THE MINORITY TEXT

THE ALEXANDRIAN TEXT

TEE WESTCOTT TEXT AND HORT TEXT

THE NESTLE TEXT

THE NESTLE - ALAND TEXT

I like the TEXTUS RECEPTUS and use the KJV with the Greek text and use the Greek text on-line !!

dan p

How many of these actually contain the original copies of the text?

 

[DAN P]

How many of these actually contain the original copies of the text?

Hi and I am sure that you can google , as the Greek texts are on the web !!

I use the reading from Robert C Brock and Brock was taught Greek by J DWIGHT PENTECOST in a bible college !!

I have his notes at my disposal and to long to put them on this site !!

dan p

 

[Right Divider]

Hi and I am sure that you can google , as the Greek texts are on the web !!

I use the reading from Robert C Brock and Brock was taught Greek by J DWIGHT PENTECOST in a bible college !!

I have his notes at my disposal and to long to put them on this site !!

dan p

My point was that none of the original manuscripts are in existence today. So you must believe that God has made sure to preserve His Word through copies and translations. Some are true and some are not.

 

[DAN P]

My point was that none of the original manuscripts are in existence today. So you must believe that God has made sure to preserve His Word through copies and translations. Some are true and some are not.

Hi and all that we have are COPIES and now and then find original pieces of different books , like the ones found in those caves in Israel !!

I trust that we have the complete word of God !!

dan p

 

[Danoh]

Hi and all that we have are COPIES and now and then find original pieces of different books , like the ones found in those caves in Israel !!

I trust that we have the complete word of God !!

dan p

And Brock - you forgot Brock :chuckle:

Rom. 5:8.

 

[oatmeal]

If you feel this is a dead horse, feel free not to post. Someone asked me to begin this debate so here it goes.

At what point does someone go from being lost to saved?
In this thread I would like to determine the point of salvation. I know God can save whomever he wants but I'm hopping we can establish God's plan for how man becomes a Christian. Surely God has revealed it to us and given us examples of conversions to better understand how. Obviously there is a lot to this so it will be a tall order to get our points across in this format. I appreciate everyone's patience and understanding.



I would like start off with at what point did Jesus say someone is saved.
Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

The language is simple. If salvation comes after belief Jesus would have said "whoever believes is saved and then should be baptized".

When a person does Romans 10:9-10 the are saved spiritually and because they had enough information to conclude those two things, they clearly have gained some knowledge that helps them become more sound/saved/whole mentally.

A person can be saved spiritually by doing Romans 10:9-10, but they have not yet made any other major changes mentally and in their lifestyle to live that salvation/wholeness in their day to day lives.

Once we are saved spiritually God's will is that we follow through with keeping Jesus lord and believing in the power of God that raised him from the dead..

I Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Water baptism is a gospel period process, it is no longer germane for we are not in the gospel period, we are in the age of grace.

Matthew 3:11

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

there are other verses that state the same thing but let us look at

Acts 1:5

For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Clearly Jesus states that water baptism was valid, BUT the baptism with the Holy Ghost is what is to be implemented, which it was on the day of Pentecost.

Acts 2:4
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

The external baptism of water was replaced by the internal baptism with the Holy Ghost, or pneuma hagion.

This nomenclature of "baptism with the Holy Ghost" became obsolete after the original outpouring of the gift of pneuma hagion, and after the original outpouring was referred to as baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, again, an internal baptism involving the cleansing by the blood of Jesus Christ. ( clearly a figure of speech referring to the shed blood, the giving of life for us by Jesus Christ for our benefit, we are not literally given a literal blood transfusion)

The water baptism is external, the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, Acts 2:38 is internal.

We become, figuratively, the pots that are not washed on the outside and filth within remains, but are washed on the inside so we can begin life anew, the new birth. From that point on we can live for God if we want to, to whatever point that God's grace makes available as we so choose to do so. Of course, that requires "the knowledge of the truth" I Timothy 2:4

 

[turbosixx]

There are a few things in your reply I would like to comment on but to keep it simple I would like to start here.

The water baptism is external, the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, Acts 2:38 is internal.

Could you please explain why you see "baptism in Jesus' name" as internal?

If you look at the language in 2:38, he says "repent and be baptized" then he says "and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit". The way it’s written they have to repent and be baptized in order to receive. If it was internal, he would say repent and you will be baptized receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit.

We can look at other passages to see which case is true.
After Cornelius receives the Holy Spirit notice what Peter says.
Acts 10:47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
It’s clear that being baptized in water is how one is baptized in the name of Jesus. Just as he said in Matt. 28:19

In Acts 19 on Paul’s third journey just before his imprisonment, notice what he says about receiving the Holy Spirit and baptism (water).
Acts 19:1 And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. 2 And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”
Paul recognizes them as believers and these men had been water baptized already but it wasn’t in the name of Jesus.

When he founds out they haven’t received the Holy Spirit, notice what he questions.
19:3 And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John's baptism.”
If the Holy Spirit baptizes at belief, why would Paul ask this question of believers?

He straightens them out about John’s baptism and then baptizes them in the name of Jesus before he gives them the Holy Spirit.
19:4 And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying.

Jesus said "unless one is born of water and the Spirit" and we can see from these passages the correlation.

 

[Right Divider]

Jesus said "unless one is born of water and the Spirit" and we can see from these passages the correlation.

Born of water does NOT mean water baptism. You have a fixation on water ceremonies.

John 3:5-6 (KJV)​

(3:5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (3:6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
​

Jesus clearly shows that He was talking about physical birth and NOT water baptism.

 

[jamie]

The water baptism is external, the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, Acts 2:38 is internal.

"And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many." (Hebrews 9:27-28)

 

[DAN P]

And Brock - you forgot Brock :chuckle:

Rom. 5:8.

Hi and Brock is the best I have heard and maybe someone , in time may surpass him , but not now !!

dan p

 

[turbosixx]

Born of water does NOT mean water baptism. You have a fixation on water ceremonies.

John 3:5-6 (KJV)​

(3:5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (3:6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
​

Jesus clearly shows that He was talking about physical birth and NOT water baptism.

I disagree. Birth water is born of flesh. Water of baptism is born of Spirit. Water and Spirit can be found in the conversion of Christians.
47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

 

[Right Divider]

I disagree. Birth water is born of flesh. Water of baptism is born of Spirit. Water and Spirit can be found in the conversion of Christians.
47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

That is incredibly confused. Born of the Spirit literally means "born from above" and that has NOTHING to do with water.

In John 3:3 this is the word translated "again" in "born again".

G509 ἄνωθεν anothen (a'-nō-then) adv.​

1. from above.​

2. (by analogy) from the first.​

3. (by implication) anew.​

[from G507]​

KJV: from above, again, from the beginning (very first), the top ​

Root(s): G507 ​

Continue in John 3 to see what someone "born from above" is like:

John 3:7-8 (KJV)​

(3:7) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. (3:8) The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
​

There is only ONE man at this time that been "born from above" and that is the man Christ Jesus.

Also note carefully the use of SINGULAR and PLURAL in that statement by the LORD Jesus Christ.THEE is singular (he was directing that at Nicodemus), but YE is plural and that was talking about those that MUST be born from above in the future.

Here is an actual example of someone that demonstrates the attributes described in John 3:8

Luke 24:36-39 (KJV)​

(24:36) And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you. (24:37) But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. (24:38) And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? (24:39) Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
​

 

[turbosixx]

That is incredibly confused. Born of the Spirit literally means "born from above" and that has NOTHING to do with water.

In John 3:3 this is the word translated "again" in "born again".

G509 ἄνωθεν anothen (a'-nō-then) adv.​

1. from above.​

2. (by analogy) from the first.​

3. (by implication) anew.​

[from G507]​

KJV: from above, again, from the beginning (very first), the top ​

Root(s): G507 ​

Continue in John 3 to see what someone "born from above" is like:

John 3:7-8 (KJV)​

(3:7) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. (3:8) The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
​

There is only ONE man at this time that been "born from above" and that is the man Christ Jesus.

Also note carefully the use of SINGULAR and PLURAL in that statement by the LORD Jesus Christ.THEE is singular (he was directing that at Nicodemus), but YE is plural and that was talking about those that MUST be born from above in the future.

Here is an actual example of someone that demonstrates the attributes described in John 3:8

Luke 24:36-39 (KJV)​

(24:36) And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you. (24:37) But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. (24:38) And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? (24:39) Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
​

I agree that born again is being born above. Where I disagree with you is the water. You say it's the water of birth. Do you have any scripture to support this idea?

I believe what Jesus is saying is that Nicodemus believed he is one of God's children because he was born into God's people but Jesus is telling him that is no longer how. It's no longer the physical birth but the Spiritual birth. Jesus uses the physical to teach the Spiritual.
Jn. 3:12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

After his death, burial and resurrection, we see just that. People being water baptized and receiving the Spirit just like Jesus said, water and Spirit.

 

[Right Divider]

I agree that born again is being born above. Where I disagree with you is the water. You say it's the water of birth. Do you have any scripture to support this idea?

I already did in post #214, which you replied to: http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...ater-Baptism&p=5135619&viewfull=1#post5135619

How did you reply to that post without reading it?

I believe what Jesus is saying is that Nicodemus believed he is one of God's children because he was born into God's people but Jesus is telling him that is no longer how. It's no longer the physical birth but the Spiritual birth. Jesus uses the physical to teach the Spiritual.
Jn. 3:12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

That does not change the fact that only ONE man has ever been born again and that is the LORD Jesus Christ. Israel's turn comes in the future when Ezekiel 37 is fulfilled.

After his death, burial and resurrection, we see just that. People being water baptized and receiving the Spirit just like Jesus said, water and Spirit.

Part of God's dealings with Israel and their prophecies, yes. Body of Christ, NO.