ECT Moment of Salvation Compared to Water Baptism

[turbosixx]

No kidding people were saved after Jesus died and rose again. Now just answer the question so we can go on with the discussion together. Do you believe that there were people saved by the Father before Jesus came?

Yes and no. Their sins were not completely forgiven until Jesus' sacrifice.

 

[God's Truth]

Yes and no.

Okay. You probably believe they were saved but not yet made perfect by the blood of Jesus, correct?

 

[Right Divider]

It looks like he has already established a new covenant.

Heb. 7:11 Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron? 12 For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well. 13 For the one of whom these things are spoken belonged to another tribe, from which no one has ever served at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, and in connection with that tribe Moses said nothing about priests.

15 This becomes even more evident when another priest arises in the likeness of Melchizedek,

Has he not entered in with his blood?
Heb. 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come,[e] then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) 12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

He has a better covenant and saved those under the first.
Heb. 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

We can now enter the true tabernacle by his blood.
Heb. 10:19 Therefore, brothers,[c] since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God,

Nope. It's still future. The blood of the covenant was shed, but the second party to the covenant (Israel) rejected it.

Jer 31:31-34 (AKJV/PCE)​

(31:31) ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: (31:32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: (31:33) But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. (31:34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. ​

Note that when the new covenant comes, verse 34 will be true. That is clearly not true today.

Also, note WHO this covenant is with -- the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

I know that Churchianity has tried to change that, but it's still the TRUTH.

Also note that Hebrews confirms Jeremiah:

Heb 8:8-12 (AKJV/PCE)​

(8:8) For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: (8:9) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. (8:10) For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: (8:11) And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. (8:12) For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. ​

Finding fault with WHOM?

 

[turbosixx]

Okay. You probably believe they were saved but not yet made perfect by the blood of Jesus, correct?

Yes with just a few exceptions.

 

[Danoh]

You can't defend your beliefs against my beliefs and proof by the scriptures, so you want to ignore me. Who cares what you think of people personally? Get over yourself. This is a debate site about scriptures and doctrine. This is not a site for Danoh to tell us about what he thinks of all of us.

Right; you conclude you have defeated a MAD (more or less) so now one of them wants to run and hide from you :chuckle:

That is just plain laughably dumb on your part - others on here dish out a way better run for their money then you ever have and not a MAD on here has ever run from such.

Still, thanks for the laugh.

But I did offer to ignore you; so its not like I did not extend that towards you

Anyway, you still need to trade in your track suit, sneakers and treadmill for...Romans 5:8.

Today, would be a good day, to do - just that.

 

[turbosixx]

Nope. It's still future. The blood of the covenant was shed, but the second party to the covenant (Israel) rejected it.

Jer 31:31-34 (AKJV/PCE)​

(31:31) ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: (31:32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: (31:33) But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. (31:34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. ​

I agree they rejected it but that doesn't stop it's establishment. The blood is what established it. The first one was took effect with blood.
Heb. 9:16 For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. 17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive. 18 Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood.
Hebrews doesn't talk like or mention it's not in effect.

Note that when the new covenant comes, verse 34 will be true. That is clearly not true today.

I suggest that is true today. In the old covenant you were born into God's people so you didn't know him, but in Christ you can only become God's child by knowing him.

Also, note WHO this covenant is with -- the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

Yes, they were the ones looking for the Messiah and who were the first to hear the gospel.

Finding fault with WHOM?

Why did he find fault with them? I suggest because they still had sin because the old law could not remove sin.
Heb. 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.
Gal. 2:21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

 

[God's Truth]

Yes with just a few exceptions.

How about let's try it like this, you tell me, do you understand that before Jesus anyone could become a child of God by doing the ceremonial works? Do you understand that God did not like it though because some would give sin offerings but not really be sorry for their sins. Do you know that God said He would make a new Covenant, and that new Covenant would be based on faith, unlike the old law which was not based on faith? Galatians 3:12 The law is not based on faith;

Now before Jesus came, God cut off and hardened the Jews that He no longer accepted. God cut them off and hardened them so that while Jesus walked the earth those cut off Jews could not get saved at that time, because Jesus came for the lost sheep of Israel, those are the Jews who already belonged to God by faith.

The Jews who already belonged to God were God's; God gave them to Jesus, they now had to go through Jesus to remain God's. Jesus said he would not lose one that the Father had given him. John 17:6 "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.

Jesus said when he is lifted off the earth, crucified, then all could come to him to be saved. That is all, the Jews who rejected him and Gentiles and Greeks everyone. John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

What did those who were given to Jesus have to do? They had to believe in Jesus' teachings and obey them. John 8:31, Matthew 12:50, and John 15:14.

Jesus said that if they continued to obey and believe him, they would be given the Holy Spirit to live with them forever.

 

[Right Divider]

I agree they rejected it but that doesn't stop it's establishment. The blood is what established it. The first one was took effect with blood.
Heb. 9:16 For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. 17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive. 18 Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood.
Hebrews doesn't talk like or mention it's not in effect.

So you completely disregard that this new covenant is with the house of Israel and house of Judah?

I suggest that is true today. In the old covenant you were born into God's people so you didn't know him, but in Christ you can only become God's child by knowing him.

That is an extremely far stretch and ignores the context of both Jeremiah and Hebrews.

Yes, they were the ones looking for the Messiah and who were the first to hear the gospel.

Once again, that's an attempted distraction from the FULL context of Jeremiah and Hebrews.

Why did he find fault with them? I suggest because they still had sin because the old law could not remove sin.
Heb. 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.
Gal. 2:21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

So God found fault with them because the LAW that HE gave them could not remove sin?

The LAW included what they had to do when the broke the LAW. The LAW was perfect and just and holy.

I think that you really need to rethink your ideas on this topic.

 

[God's Truth]

Read how Jesus speaks about the Holy Spirit that he would give:

John 14:15-31

Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”


Now enters the Holy Spirit:

Luke 24:49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high."

Acts 1:4
And when they were gathered together, He commanded them: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift the Father promised, which you have heard Me discuss.

 

[turbosixx]

How about let's try it like this, you tell me, do you understand that before Jesus anyone could become a child of God by doing the ceremonial works? Do you understand that God did not like it though because some would give sin offerings but not really be sorry for their sins. Do you know that God said He would make a new Covenant, and that new Covenant would be based on faith, unlike the old law which was not based on faith? Galatians 3:12 The law is not based on faith;

Now before Jesus came, God cut off and hardened the Jews that He no longer accepted. God cut them off and hardened them so that while Jesus walked the earth those cut off Jews could not get saved at that time, because Jesus came for the lost sheep of Israel, those are the Jews who already belonged to God by faith.

The Jews who already belonged to God were God's; God gave them to Jesus, they now had to go through Jesus to remain God's. Jesus said he would not lose one that the Father had given him. John 17:6 "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.

Jesus said when he is lifted off the earth, crucified, then all could come to him to be saved. That is all, the Jews who rejected him and Gentiles and Greeks everyone. John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

What did those who were given to Jesus have to do? They had to believe in Jesus' teachings and obey them. John 8:31, Matthew 12:50, and John 15:14.

I agree with you. This is how I understand it. All those who lived before Jesus (Jews) were under the old law. Jesus also. So that is how they were to be faithful to God. When Jesus offered himself, those faithful had their sins forgiven.
Heb. 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

Jesus said that if they continued to obey and believe him, they would be given the Holy Spirit to live with them forever.

Yes, and I believe they received the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost.
Acts 2:16 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:
17
“‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams;

 

[God's Truth]

I agree with you. This is how I understand it. All those who lived before Jesus (Jews) were under the old law. Jesus also. So that is how they were to be faithful to God. When Jesus offered himself, those faithful had their sins forgiven.
Heb. 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

It seems as if you still don't quite get it. The Jews who obeyed the ceremonial works had their sins forgiven.

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.

Hebrews 9:22
According to the Law, in fact, nearly everything must be purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.


When Jesus came, he did not teach all those old law to do he came and gave the guidelines and rules for the new law, and then he shed his blood on the cross for that new Covenant.

Yes, and I believe they received the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost.
Acts 2:16 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:
17
“‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams;

So then, it seems you agree with me in that I believe there were those who ALREADY belonged to God when Jesus came, but they now had to go through Jesus to remain God's. They had to believe and obey Jesus.

 

[turbosixx]

So you completely disregard that this new covenant is with the house of Israel and house of Judah?

Not at all. It was to them and their new fellow heirs.

Once again, that's an attempted distraction from the FULL context of Jeremiah and Hebrews.

I don't see it that way. Paul said the law was to lead us to Christ.
Gal. 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.

Until Christ came, past tense. Are the Jews still under law? If not, what are they under?

So God found fault with them because the LAW that HE gave them could not remove sin?

The LAW included what they had to do when the broke the LAW. The LAW was perfect and just and holy.

Yes, the law is Holy and good but Paul calls it the law of sin and death because it can't save.
Rom. 7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. 10 The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. 11 For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

 

[Right Divider]

Not at all. It was to them and their new fellow heirs.

Being fellow-heirs with Christ has nothing to do with any covenant.

I don't see it that way. Paul said the law was to lead us to Christ.
Gal. 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.

Until Christ came, past tense. Are the Jews still under law? If not, what are they under?

When were you under the law?

Yes, the law is Holy and good but Paul calls it the law of sin and death because it can't save.
Rom. 7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. 10 The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. 11 For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

You claimed that God found fault with THEM because the law could not remove sin?

Why did he find fault with them? I suggest because they still had sin because the old law could not remove sin.
Heb. 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.
Gal. 2:21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

Did God miss something? Was it Israel's fault that the law could not remove sin?

How can it be Israel's fault that the law could not remove sin?

 

[God's Truth]

Being fellow-heirs with Christ has nothing to do with any covenant.

Of course it does. You have to become a child of God to be an heir. Jesus tells us how to become a child of God. Heirs are children.

All have to come into the covenant with God to receive the promises.

When were you under the law?

Paul explains a lot about the old law and why the Gentiles were once EXCLUDED and WITHOUT God. They were without God because they did not come under the covenant.

See Ephesians 2:12.

You claimed that God found fault with THEM because the law could not remove sin?

I know that is what turbosixx said, but the fact is God found fault with the Jews because they would do the purification works but not really be sorry for their sins.

 

[God's Truth]

Paul is speaking to the Corinthian Gentiles. Paul says he is a minister of a NEW COVENANT.


2 Corinthians 3:6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

The Greater Glory of the New Covenant

7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!


Paul says he is a MINISTER of a NEW COVENANT, and that it is THE MINISTRY/COVENANT of the SPIRIT.

 

[DAN P]

You have a verse?

Here is a verse, from Jesus' own mouth, that actually says how to make Christians, and it's by baptism.
Matt. 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Hi and this verse has NOTHING to do with NATIONS / ETHNOS !!

ETHNOS has many meanings , like , GENTILE , RACE , HEATHEN , and will you belikeve JEWISH NATION !!

Read John 11:48 and , 50 and 51 and and see that Matt 28:19 and 20 is speaking to the Jews scattered among thenGENTILE NATIONS !!

dan p

 

[Tambora]

Lol - there comes GD and company saying they want in on this great deal

No Deal! :sibbie:
I do not negotiate with terrorists.

 

[Danoh]

No Deal! :sibbie:
I do not negotiate with terrorists.

Lol - you don't need to; looks to me like that tomatoe is terrorist enough :chuckle:

 

[turbosixx]

Hi and this verse has NOTHING to do with NATIONS / ETHNOS !!

ETHNOS has many meanings , like , GENTILE , RACE , HEATHEN , and will you belikeve JEWISH NATION !!

Read John 11:48 and , 50 and 51 and and see that Matt 28:19 and 20 is speaking to the Jews scattered among thenGENTILE NATIONS !!

dan p

I looked at a several different versions and they all say "all nations".

When we see who has been added the body by hearing the gospel, it's a bunch of different nations.

 

[jamie]

I looked at a several different versions and they all say "all nations".

Genesis 12:3 says all families of the earth, which would be all nations.