ECT Moment of Salvation Compared to Water Baptism

[Right Divider]

10as a plan for the fullness of time, to bring all things in heaven and on earth together in Christ.

Yes.... yet future just like Paul says.

Why do you keep trying to use bogus "translations"?... Never mind... I know why.

 

[God's Truth]

But you don't obey perfectly. You are condemned by your own words.

I do obey perfectly; however, you need to stop speaking about me as a way to defend your beliefs.
You should stop accusing me as a way to defend your doctrines. Speak about the scriptures and stop accusing.

You were never supposed to sin in the first place.

God knew we would sin. God made the plan for salvation to be through Jesus before He made anything.

I have NEVER "gone against your for preaching obedience to Christ". You have a persecution complex.

Of course you go against me for preaching obedience to Christ.

You even scream at me and say we do not have to obey what Jesus taught while he walked the earth.

You go so much against obeying Jesus that you won't even acknowledge that we are to repent our sins to God through Jesus, you say repent is to merely change your mind about God.

You go against me so much when I preach obedience to Christ that you call me a liar and other foul names.

You go against my preaching obedience to Christ so much so that you claim I don't have faith because of it.

Obedience does NOT EARN eternal life.

2 Corinthians 7:15
And his affection for you is all the greater when he remembers that you were all obedient, receiving him with fear and trembling.

Colossians 3:23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, 24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. 25 Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for their wrongs, and there is no favoritism.

These rewards are NOT ETERNAL LIFE.

The INHERITANCE is ETERNAL LIFE:

Matthew 19:29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.

Luke 10:25[ The Parable of the Good Samaritan ] On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

The INHERITANCE is the REWARD.

Colossians 3:24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward.It is the Lord Christ you are serving.

That means the inheritance is the reward of eternal life.

We can see from the scriptures that the REWARD is the INHERITANCE of ETERNAL LIFE.

 

[God's Truth]

Yes.... yet future just like Paul says.

Why do you keep trying to use bogus "translations"?... Never mind... I know why.

Jesus said he came to FULFILL, and he did what he came to do. He said he came to FINISH His Father's work, and that is what he did.

Jesus said it is restored and to be reconciled to him.


Hebrews 11:40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

2 Corinthians 5:18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:

Ephesians 2:16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

Now read this next scripture. We see that from the beginning all things were created through Jesus, now Jesus through his body reconciles himself and all things to him again.

Colossians 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Colossians 1:22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—

Church is the body of Christ and it is those who are reconciled to God.

Everything was made in Jesus but cast out when Adam and Eve sinned.

Sin separated us from God.

When someone is saved they are put in Jesus and Jesus puts himself in them.

That is being reconciled to God.

 

[Right Divider]

I do obey perfectly; however, you need to stop speaking about me as a way to defend your beliefs.
You should stop accusing me as a way to defend your doctrines. Speak about the scriptures and stop accusing.

You are self-righteous and God does not like that.

God knew we would sin. God made the plan for salvation to be through Jesus before He made anything.

No kidding.

Of course you go against me for preaching obedience to Christ.

See there you go lying again. So much for your "perfect obedience".

You even scream at me and say we do not have to obey what Jesus taught while he walked the earth.

So you've sold all of your possessions and raised the dead?

You go so much against obeying Jesus that you won't even acknowledge that we are to repent our sins to God through Jesus, you say repent is to merely change your mind about God.

The meaning of repent depends on the CONTEXT of the place where is is used and YOU LIED AGAIN.

You go against me so much when I preach obedience to Christ that you call me a liar and other foul names.

I don't call you foul names, I accurately describe your behavior. You are self-righteous.

You go against my preaching obedience to Christ so much so that you claim I don't have faith because of it.

I only "go against" your bogus idea that eternal life is earned by obedience. Eternal life is a FREE GIFT that CANNOT be EARNED in ANY WAY.

Rom 6:23 (AKJV/PCE)​

(6:23) For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. ​

​

 

[turbosixx]

Scripture does not say exactly what that means, and yet we know from scripture that whatever it means, it did not happen. The LORD Jesus Christ said that the unbelieving leaders of Israel would have the kingdom taken away from them. This clearly shows that they HAD the kingdom to which the LORD was referring. The new covenant that scripture defines in Jeremiah 31 and confirms in Hebrew 8 is between God and Israel. Many try to make both the kingdom and the covenant something that it is NOT.

This is one root of our differences.

Yes, it was offered to them. They rejected it and it was taken from them and given to a people producing it’s fruit. He did establish his kingdom.

From my perspective, I would respectfully suggest you’re making the same mistake the leaders did. The kingdom Jesus offered them is not the one they had envisioned based on the prophecies. He described it many times in his teaching but they still couldn’t see it because it wasn’t what they imagined in their minds.

When God describes something great to us, he uses things we can understand. For example, Heaven being a city with walls, gates and streets of gold. I’m know that description pails to its true glory but that’s all our minds can understand. I suggest the same goes for the kingdom in prophecy. Ezekiel’s temple is awesome but it doesn’t compare to being able to approach God, in the true temple, thru Christ our high priest anywhere on the planet.
Heb. 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; 2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

The physical kingdom of Israel was just a shadow to help us understand Christ.

 

[Right Divider]

This is one root of our differences.

Yes, it was offered to them. They rejected it and it was taken from them and given to a people producing it’s fruit. He did establish his kingdom.

From my perspective, I would respectfully suggest you’re making the same mistake the leaders did. The kingdom Jesus offered them is not the one they had envisioned based on the prophecies. He described it many times in his teaching but they still couldn’t see it because it wasn’t what they imagined in their minds.

When God describes something great to us, he uses things we can understand. For example, Heaven being a city with walls, gates and streets of gold. I’m know that description pails to its true glory but that’s all our minds can understand. I suggest the same goes for the kingdom in prophecy. Ezekiel’s temple is awesome but it doesn’t compare to being able to approach God, in the true temple, thru Christ our high priest anywhere on the planet.
Heb. 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; 2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

The physical kingdom of Israel was just a shadow to help us understand Christ.

You need to study the prophets of Israel to understand what the kingdom really is. Once again, you are stuck in "Churchianity" and do not take ALL of the Bible seriously.

 

[turbosixx]

You need to study the prophets of Israel to understand what the kingdom really is. Once again, you are stuck in "Churchianity" and do not take ALL of the Bible seriously.

I'm good.

 

[Right Divider]

I'm good.

You're hopeless.

 

[turbosixx]

You're basically dealing with a very arrogant, intolerant, and narrow minded bunch, in most of them on here.

It is crystal clear in Romans thru Philemon that the Apostle they claim to follow would not have put up with their nonsense and neither should anyone else.

Yep.

2 Tim. 2:24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,

 

[God's Truth]

You are self-righteous and God does not like that.


No kidding.


See there you go lying again. So much for your "perfect obedience".

It is perfect obedience to repent of your sins and work out your salvation and train yourself.
Do you believe there is scripture that says that and do you believe you have to do those things?

So you've sold all of your possessions and raised the dead?

Jesus doesn't tell everyone to do that to enter.

See you are trying to stop me from preaching obedience to Christ.

You are using four or more evil tactics and don't even know it.

You are denying going against me preaching obedience.
You foul mouth me.
You cause confusion and say you do believe in obeying Jesus but you can never say what to obey.
You bring up something hard to obey and that which is not commanded to all every time I say 'obey'

The meaning of repent depends on the CONTEXT of the place where is is used and YOU LIED AGAIN.

At least you are coming around to admitting that repent is of sins sometimes, SOMETIMES.

We humans are ALWAYS to repent of our sins. You used to deny that repent of is of sins, and you used to give thanks to other faith alone people when they said it.

Now you say sometimes.

I don't call you foul names, I accurately describe your behavior. You are self-righteous.

You do call me foul names. Maybe you are the one with the problem with honesty?

I only "go against" your bogus idea that eternal life is earned by obedience.

No that is not the only time.

By the way, I give you scripture proving that eternal life is the earned reward. Why don't you ever address those scriptures? Don't say because they have nothing to do with it because I address the scriptures you falsely use.

Eternal life is a FREE GIFT that CANNOT be EARNED in ANY WAY.

Rom 6:23 (AKJV/PCE)​

(6:23) For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. ​

​

The gift is to those with a good heart on the side of truth who have faith and repentance, just ask for the scriptures and I will give them.

 

[Cross Reference]

If you feel this is a dead horse, feel free not to post. Someone asked me to begin this debate so here it goes.

At what point does someone go from being lost to saved?
In this thread I would like to determine the point of salvation. I know God can save whomever he wants but I'm hopping we can establish God's plan for how man becomes a Christian. Surely God has revealed it to us and given us examples of conversions to better understand how. Obviously there is a lot to this so it will be a tall order to get our points across in this format. I appreciate everyone's patience and understanding.



I would like start off with at what point did Jesus say someone is saved.
Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

The language is simple. If salvation comes after belief Jesus would have said "whoever believes is saved and then should be baptized".

Great question, sixx.

Try seeing water baptism as a seal to the conscience of that one baptiszed AFTER he/she believes. See it as a unending reminder to that one who might fall away that he might then explain the guilt that remains to whatever degree his guilt may then be.

Jesus said this about salvation. Notice the words "might know": ". . this is life eternal, that they "might know" thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3 (KJV)

For the one who says he believes, the pursuit of "knowing God as Jesus presented Him in his 'unglorified' flesh and which we are, will be evidenced such that his sanctified life will be demonstrated as was in his flesh. This is the way of the new born of Him Jesus explained to the believer, Nicodemus [Jn 3:3-5 (KJV)].

In this we must understand that our overcoming sin is not that which will bring spiritual sucess but attaining unto God - Christ Jesus will bring about the overcoming automatically and as Paul spoke of it, will, of itself, carry the day for us who pursue John 17:3 "with all their heart, soul, mind and strength". That is His Promise; our enterance into the 'Promised Land' of Romans 8.
.

 

[Cross Reference]

That scripture you're talking about is a special situation, the first Gentile converts. It happened only one other time to the apostles. Please consider this:

The apostles:
Acts 1:4 And while staying with them he ordered them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, “you heard from me; 5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”
Jesus tells the apostles that they will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.

We can see what that looked like here:
Acts 2:3 And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.
We see being baptized with the Holy Spirit is (1)directly from God and (2)evident by speaking in tongues.

The Gentiles:
Acts 10:44 While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. 45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. 46 For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God.
Again we see it was (1) directly from God and (2) evident by speaking in tongues.

We also know it's baptism with the Holy Spirit because Peter says so and says it was just like theirs "at the beginning".
Acts 11: 15 As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

Since in this case they received the Holy Spirit before water baptism, Peter commands them to be baptized in the name of Jesus.
Acts 10:47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

No one else in scripture is baptized with the Holy Spirit.

Question: Who is the Baptizer of/with the Holy Spirit, and with fire, as JTB inferred would never cease to be made effectual?? cf Matt 3:11; Luke 3:16 KJV. . . .Who might have the problem here for believing this as never ending since first performed.

 

[turbosixx]

Thanks for the reply.
While I agree with a lot you say here, this is the part I struggle with.

Try seeing water baptism as

I understand what your saying but I only understand baptism as the bible describes. I don't know if you remember or participated but I posed the question "what is the purpose of baptism". I welcomed any views but asked that they name the scriptures that they concluded that view from. I got almost no scriptures to support their views.

Try seeing water baptism as a seal to the conscience of that one baptiszed AFTER he/she believes.

I absolutely agree only believers are truly baptized. I see this statement close to what the bible says about baptism.
1 Pt. 3:21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

The bible says so much more about baptism but for whatever reason people avoid those passages.

 

[turbosixx]

Question: Who is the Baptizer of/with the Holy Spirit, and with fire, as JTB inferred would never cease to be made effectual?? cf Matt 3:11; Luke 3:16 KJV. . . .Who might have the problem here for believing this as never ending since first performed.

If you will notice in the quote of mine you posted, I said it was (1)directly from God (2)evident by speaking in tongues in both cases. Does that answer your question?

From reading the bible I don't see how "baptism with the Holy Spirit" could be never ending.
Acts 11:15 As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

When Peter sees it again, he remembers back to the first time he saw it. Peter had given the Holy Spirit to those in Samaria before preaching to Cornelius. It's obviously different than "baptism with the Holy Spirit" and there is not scriptural mention of "baptism with the Holy Spirit". We do not see it anywhere else but in those two special situations.

The way I understand it, when we are baptized in the name of Jesus we receive the Holy Spirit as a seal (ownership). Not baptized with but receive. I see this as never ending.

I believe baptism puts us into Christ and we become his.
Gal. 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

It's how we die with Christ.
Rom. 6:3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

And there are other verses that tells us other things it does but you get the idea.

 

[Cross Reference]

If you will notice in the quote of mine you posted, I said it was (1)directly from God (2)evident by speaking in tongues in both cases. Does that answer your question?

By whom is it directly from God? I gave you the scriptures as well for you to know ans understand.

From reading the bible I don't see how "baptism with the Holy Spirit" could be never ending.
Acts 11:15 As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

Is not still being administered by God through Jesus Christ?

When Peter sees it again, he remembers back to the first time he saw it. Peter had given the Holy Spirit to those in Samaria before preaching to Cornelius. It's obviously different than "baptism with the Holy Spirit" and there is not scriptural mention of "baptism with the Holy Spirit". We do not see it anywhere else but in those two special situations.

The way I understand it, when we are baptized in the name of Jesus we receive the Holy Spirit as a seal (ownership). Not baptized with but receive. I see this as never ending.

I believe baptism puts us into Christ and we become his.

And upon our obedience can it only be said we are His, correct?

Gal. 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

It's how we die with Christ.
Rom. 6:3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

And there are other verses that tells us other things it does but you get the idea.

There are three manifestations of the Holy Spirit mentioned in the NT scriptures. "With", "In" and "Upon" His disciples. Look all that up.

 

[turbosixx]

By whom is it directly from God? I gave you the scriptures as well for you to know ans understand.

Jesus, Jn. 16:7

Is not still being administered by God through Jesus Christ?

I don't see any evidence of baptism with the Holy Spirit other than the two special situations.

And upon our obedience can it only be said we are His, correct?

Absolutely.

There are three manifestations of the Holy Spirit mentioned in the NT scriptures. "With", "In" and "Upon" His disciples. Look all that up.

That will take time. Can you point me to something specific you have in mind.

 

[Cross Reference]

Jesus, Jn. 16:7




I don't see any evidence of baptism with the Holy Spirit other than the two special situations.




Absolutely.




That will take time. Can you point me to something specific you have in mind.

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. John 14:15-18 (KJV)


1. . . . "WITH" . . The Holy Spirit by the Presence of [unglorified] Jesus was already with them.

21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, so I am sending you.”
22 After he had said this, he breathed on the disciples and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit". John 20:21-22 (GW)


2. . . ."IN" . . New birth of His Disciples

49 “I'm sending you what my Father promised. Wait here in the city until you receive power from heaven.” Luke 24:49 (GW)

3 . ... "UPON" . . . Baptism of Jesus Christ For more understanding See Acts 19:1-7 KJV. .

5 John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
6 So when the apostles came together, they asked him, “Lord, is this the time when you're going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
7 Jesus told them, “You don't need to know about times or periods that the Father has determined by his own authority.
8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes to you. Then you will be my witnesses to testify about me in Jerusalem, throughout Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” Acts 1:5-8 (GW)

 

[Cross Reference]

You need to study the prophets of Israel to understand what the kingdom really is. Once again, you are stuck in "Churchianity" and do not take ALL of the Bible seriously.

If you understood Jesus you would know the value of the new birth and why you are without it.

 

[turbosixx]

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. John 14:15-18 (KJV)


1. . . . "WITH"

21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, so I am sending you.”
22 After he had said this, he breathed on the disciples and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit". John 20:21-22 (GW)


2. . . ."IN"

49 “I'm sending you what my Father promised. Wait here in the city until you receive power from heaven.” Luke 24:49 (GW)

3 . ... "UPON"

5 John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
6 So when the apostles came together, they asked him, “Lord, is this the time when you're going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
7 Jesus told them, “You don't need to know about times or periods that the Father has determined by his own authority.
8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes to you. Then you will be my witnesses to testify about me in Jerusalem, throughout Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” Acts 1:5-8 (GW)

Thanks. What jumps out to me is this is the 12 apostles who were to be Christ's chosen witnesses.
Acts 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

Acts 1:21 So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us—one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection.”

Acts 10:39 And we are witnesses of all that he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree, 40 but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear, 41 not to all the people but to us who had been chosen by God as witnesses, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.

The Holy Spirit inspired the apostles in their writings and when we read them we are reading the things the Holy Spirit poured out, forever.

 

[Cross Reference]

Thanks.

What jumps out to me is this is the 12 apostles who were to be Christ's chosen witnesses.

Acts 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

They were disciples before they were Apostles.
It is written that about 500 hundred disciples witnessed the ascension. Not all became Apostles. Only 120 tarried for the baptism of Acts 2. So who was Peter explaining to the crowd outside but the experience of the 12 or 120 disciples? Understanding that leaves the door open for us to understand the Baptism where Jesus does the Baptizing and which never ends for those who believe for it to pursue it as being part of the everlasting life which is in the Father. cf John 17:3ff KJV. Jesus still says to the evangelist: "Don't leave Jerusalem with out it". I often wonder what became of the 380 disciples who didn't tarry in the upper room that day? We must assume that if they went on to preach the gospel they did so without the unction to function, Jesus warned against in Luke 24:49 KJV. We might also assume they wrote from their own understanding, not perceiving with a surety, what they witnessed from the life of Jesus for however long they watched him when near Him. The records only reveal that only the twelve traveled with Him. We might also reason why we have problems caused by the "Coptic" translations of today. They weren't there.

We who are serious about this must know that the Baptism by "Comforter" is the "priestly" garment of Ez.44:17,18 KJV. It is the Linen garment mentioned which is the type "righteousness" provided for by God per Jesus Baptism of Acts 2 and the reason given by Jesus' own Baptism at the Jordan with JTB before starting His own ministry. (See Matt 3:13-17 KJV.)

Jesus led the way to Pentecost Acts 2, just as much as He led to Calvary where we must begin our understanding of life as God purposed it from the Beginning, His Beginning.. He never quits leading those learning to be faithful in Him as their Father..

Hope this helps.