Mean TOL members

[beanieboy]

Originally posted by AtheistsSuck

Playing dumb again.

The speck and the beam both represent sin. Sin is sin - size doesn't matter.

Now answer my question, dodger.

I don't know.
I'm not christian.
I am guessing that it means that if you don't have love, and are trying to point out another's sin, you will probably do more damage than saying nothing. But when you have love, you can remove it without removing an eye.
I conclude that because Corinthians says that if you can move mountains with faith, and can profesy, but have not love, you have nothing and are no more than a clanging gong.
The passage isn't clear - only that a huge difference is used in comparing a beam to a speck. So, I'm unsure.

But I would rather have a christian answer it.
Not my book, not my religion, and I am trying to understand how christians interpret this.

 

[beanieboy]

Originally posted by 1Way

BB - I just also read the previous stuff so I have one more comment. I believe the speck log contrast issue has to do with issues of magnitudes of guilt or culpability. There are teachings that clearly show that the easier and the more responsible you are to do good, then the worse it is if you do not do it, same holds true for evil in the opposite way. So heres the plain and simple.

If we have the same speck in our eye that someone else has, picture it, each person has the same speck, the same sin. As soon as either says to the other, you know you have a problem, let me help you out of your sin, then because the helper did NOT first remove his own speck, the problem is aggravated or multiplied and made far worse because of the sin of say one thing and do another, hypocrisy.

The point is that hypocrisy is a terrible and destructive sin so the speck becomes a log if you dare become the hypocrite with it. So the same sin in each person, but when multiplied by the sin of hypocrisy, it becomes greatly aggrivated and enlarged.

It may not be a perfect explanation, but I think it fits, I hope this helps.

Can you illustrate with a story?

I've never heard anyone explain that the closer you are to goodness, the graver it is when you are not.

And, you are saying that hypocracy is the "log" itself?
Again, I have never heard that explanation.
That's something to think about.

But then, wouldn't pride be the log?

Thanks for your input. Gives me a lot to think aobut.

 

[servent101]

beanieboy

But I would rather have a christian answer it.
Not my book, not my religion, and I am trying to understand how christians interpret this.

To behold the sin of your brother - to see your brother as that sin - this is the log in one's eye - how do you remove the sin from your brother, when all one sees in their brother is that sin? The sin that is preventing you from helping your brother is that you only see your brother as a sin - not as a person... so how can you help him or her?

Better yet - how do you cure your brother without him or her ever knowing they had a problem? - This is the easiest way to help a friend.

How do you help a person of a different sexual orientaiton when you call that person that sexual orientation?

With Christ's Love

Servent101

 

[beanieboy]

Originally posted by Aimiel

The beam is that your sins cannot be forgiven, without The Blood of The Lamb; and the speck is any sin which might be found in someone who is now 'beamless' (Christian). None of us are without specks. Many of us have had our beams carried. Jesus was nailed to mine. What are you going to do about yours?

Didn't Jesus forgive the woman caught in adultery before he was crucified? I thought Jesus forgave sins prior to his crucifiction?

This is actually a huge problem I have.
As I said, if I don't demand it, why would God?
The idea of Jesus hanging on a cross to pay for my sin reminds me of those who were punished by whipping their whipping boy.
It doesn't make sense, nor do I want anyone to answer for my sins. I want to. If that's not good enough, then, too bad.

If I lie to you, should I send my sister to your house to say she's sorry, or face you, and admit my lie?

That's how I see it.

But I don't understand the necessity of the crucifiction because he was forgiving people's sins prior to it.

Whaddya think? (I know that you have probably covered this somewhere, but I've always wondered.)

 

[beanieboy]

Originally posted by servent101

beanieboy

To behold the sin of your brother - to see your brother as that sin - this is the log in one's eye - how do you remove the sin from your brother, when all one sees in their brother is that sin? The sin that is preventing you from helping your brother is that you only see your brother as a sin - not as a person... so how can you help him or her?

Better yet - how do you cure your brother without him or her ever knowing they had a problem? - This is the easiest way to help a friend.

How do you help a person of a different sexual orientaiton when you call that person that sexual orientation?

With Christ's Love

Servent101

You make a good point.

 

[1Way]

BB – I’m not sure if you missed it or what, but after that post, I also dealt very pointedly on the speck and log issue. Here it is again. Please consider this answer to your question.

• I just also read the previous stuff so I have one more comment. I believe the speck log contrast issue has to do with issues of magnitudes of guilt or culpability. There are teachings that clearly show that the easier and the more responsible you are to do good, then the worse it is if you do not do it, same holds true for evil in the opposite way. So here’s the plain and simple.
  
  If we have the same speck in our eye that someone else has, picture it, each person has the same speck, the same sin. As soon as either says to the other, you know you have a problem, let me help you out of your sin, then because the helper did NOT first remove his own speck, the problem is aggravated or multiplied and made far worse because of the sin of say one thing and do another, hypocrisy.
  
  The point is that hypocrisy is a terrible and destructive sin so the speck becomes a log if you dare become the hypocrite with it. So the same sin in each person, but when multiplied by the sin of hypocrisy, it becomes greatly aggravated and enlarged.
  
  It may not be a perfect explanation, but I think it fits, I hope this helps.

Do you get the isse about how the sin of hypocrisy naturally makes the sin a larger more damaging sin? So that is a very natural understanding for why God used the two different wood sizes, very wise of God, wouldn’t you say?

As to your questions about ascending culpability, or sliding scale morality and relationships, it is only reasonable. Which one should be held more accountable? Things that are easily within our ability to do something about, or things that are almost impossible to do? Similar with a first approach to a suspected wrong in someone else, you at first just politely and kindly share your concern, then if the issue is found to be a real and serious offense, then perhaps more stern measures need apply, then if they remain rebellious and defensive in their sin, then for the sake of all this escalation, it is warranted to oppose this evil all the more, even harshly if necessary.

I am to some extent guilty of the shedding of innocent blood because I sat on my duff most of my life and did very little about protesting against abortion. But for some people, protesting would be a very difficult task and for others it would be very easy for them to do, so these various issues of escalation are simple relationships.

1. Practically every story in the bible uses this idea in a general sense. Jesus said, who loved more, the one forgiven of little or forgiven the least, an issue of escalation.
   
2. Jesus said of the poor old woman who only gave a few bits, that she gave more because she gave from her poverty, so by proportion, the small amount was really gigantic because of her relative poverty but big heart for the lord, an issue of relational escalation.
   
3. Jesus died for the sins of the world, He is the most precious commodity, yet He still died for us(!), so His love is the greatest of all. An issue of escalation.
   
4. Jesus says, if you can not be trusted with a little, then you will not be trusted with a lot. If you can be trusted with a lot, then more will be added. An issue of escalation.

I hope this helps. And I hope you stop constantly asking questions and treating us who are trying to help you with so much static and content. You are usually polite, but you don’t seem to stick with a topic if it serves to bring you to Christ. Please, if you are interested in the Truth, He is interested in YOU. Keep the questions and comments to what you really care to learn about, and then when you get the answers, be happy and explain your response for how it might make in a difference in your life. But if this is all for show and no go, then why waste our time.

 

[beanieboy]

You know how you read through, post, read more, post, etc?

Your post was farther down.

Yeah, I saw what you wrote, and commented, but what you added was something I never thought about:
Who loves his master more, he who has been forgiven a large debt or a small debt.

I've never connected those.

 

[beanieboy]

Originally posted by AtheistsSuck

Playing dumb again.

The speck and the beam both represent sin. Sin is sin - size doesn't matter.

Now answer my question, dodger.

AS - in one thread, you said that I have no right to quote or interpret the bible.
I'm down with that.
But then why do you ask me to interpret the bible here?

Which one do you want?

Someone else suggested that, since I am not Christian, so I have stopped looking to the bible, and doing any reading of it, and instead, reading Buddhist texts.

It would be helpful for me to know which you prefer.

Namaste.

 

[1Way]

BB - Servant did not make a good point. Her entire post was nicer than God. We get all the names and judgments against sin and immorality from the good book authored from the good God who teaches good things that being a homosexual sodomite is a thing worthy of divine fire and brimstone.

It is good to call sin sin, and it is good to be as nice and friendly as the situation allows. But if someone who is deep in sin is going to be helped, it is not going to be by more denial of the shame and guilt involved. The first redemptive step on the road to Romans, which is the path unto salvation, is that you are a guilty sinner headed straight to hell unless you repent and turn in faith to God for your very soul. I am not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and I am ashamed of my sin, and of yours, but hay, the truth is, mine is covered, my slate is as good as gold, yours is not, it is bare and your guilt remains. I have nothing but good things ahead of me for all eternity, you have nothing but bad things for you for all eternity, ,,, unless you trust God to save you, and that’s it.

You know the options, so why is there a shadow of doubt, make your choice before it’s too late, don’t be blinded by the assumption that you will end up having enough time so you’ll turn to God when you are sick in the hospital like so many do, and by then it may or may not be someone with a really good understand of what it takes to be saved trying to help you. There simply is no good reason to put off this decision. You can write me personally and I would be happy to share more and pray with you for your salvation.

I answered your question about the speck and log bit with what I feel was a very tight response. Yet you not only have not thanked me for providing the answer, you ignore it. Are you for real or is this all just a lame past time for you? Do you sincerely want the answers or are you just needling the opposition path, seeking something wrong in what we say no matter what?

 

[beanieboy]

Originally posted by 1Way

Small - Jesus did not teach you have to become sinless in order to help someone else out of their sins. That is just foolish. He said do not be a hypocrite, say one thing and do another.

First remove that sin from your life so that you may have righteous standing to help another remove that same sin.

Hypocrisy is over say one thing and do another, so the two parties involved were necessarily guilty of the same sin. It can not mean judge not unless you are sinless, or do you think Jesus taught to actually become sinless so that you can actually help someone else become sinless?

No wonder basically everyone despises your moronisms which is almost always full of hypocrisy and contradictory nonsense.

You are saying that if I lie, and call you a liar, I have a log, and you have a speck.

That's pobably why I didn't thank you.
I don't understand how the same sin is a log in one person and a speck in the other.

Another pointed out that hypocracy is the log, because, as in the example, now you are a liar AND a hypocrite, if you lie and call someone a liar, and don't look at yourself.

That makes more sense.

What do you think.

btw, thank you for your response.
I wish you would leave off the snide "no wonder people hate us" things. It's not necessary.

 

[beanieboy]

I will add that in my experience, people who finger point often want the guilt taken off of them.

That's why I listen carefully when someone condemns another.

One will say that they are doing it "in love" or because they are right, but often, the person has many faults of their own that they are unwilling to address.

As I have used as an example, Kelly may call Mary a slut, trip Mary at lunch, throw peas at her in the cafeteria, and gossip about Mary, or even lie, because she disapproves of Mary's sexually active life. Kelly is a virgin.

But if you say to Kelly, "you are acting like a jerk," she will say, "hey, I'm not perfect," or "Mary's the one who's a whore!"

Kelly isn't being honest with herself, from a Buddhist perspective. She is focussing on someone else, and refusing to look at herself.

Is it wrong to point to the faults of others?
It depends why you are doing it, how you are doing it, and when.

I doubt any of us would have friends if that was the only way we related to one another.

 

[1Way]

BB – Ok, it can be a bit confusing, because of the money issue. Usually money is a thing not directly related to a good godly love. But it is loving to make money to provide for your family, it is loving to make money and give to the Christian church and ministry, it is loving to make money and help the destitute and needy in their affliction. So money often directly represents our service to one another, we donate and sacrifice our time and money to help others.

Consider this

• Joh 15:13 "Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends.

What is the greater, if someone gives their life to save yours, or if they brought you a piece of candy but never tried to save you from eternal damnation? Issues of escalation, the greater sacrifice shows the greater love. Now Jesus could give you a candy bar, and still love you all the same, but the greater the sacrifice, the great the love it took to give that sacrifice.

God still loves us all who ever gets saved. But it requires more love to forgive a Hitler than it does to forgive a Billy Graham. I think it is a universal fact, that some things are simply more “evil” and some are more “good”. Most people like to say that all sins are the same, which is foolishness. All sins are able to send you to hell, but not all sins are the same. The fact that Jesus’ love is the greatest is because of several issues of relationship and scale, He is the most precious commodity of all the universe, yet He gave His life up and died for us, basically the most sinful of commodity in the universe, and He did it for the highest good, simply because He wants the best for us, He simply wants to love us and care for us.

So therefore, the love of Jesus is the greatest. My time caring to try to help you is loving and caring, but it is nothing compared to what Jesus actually did for you. And in accordance to all this and the issue of escalation, because it is so easy for you to get saved, all you had to do is open your heart up to Jesus and let Him in and trust that He died on account of you and your sin so that you might be able to live with Him forever, because that is so easy for you to do, if you reject Him, you hell will be that much hotter, your torment will be that much more severe.

Lu 12:47 "And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare [himself] or do according to his will, x(shall be beaten with many [stripes]1) . 48 "But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

But conversely, if you get saved, because of your exceedingly rebellious ways, you will have great reward and your joy and forgiveness would be so much greater.

It’s a natural issue of escalation. Choose God for an all expenses paid blessing with heavenly rewards, literally!

You said

You are saying that if I lie, and call you a liar, I have a log, and you have a speck.

That's pobably why I didn't thank you.
I don't understand how the same sin is a log in one person and a speck in the other.

I said both, me, I’m the one who said both. I’m not sure you are reading what I have said. You said

btw, thank you for your response.
I wish you would leave off the snide "no wonder people hate us" things. It's not necessary.

I never said that, or are you saying that smaller is ... homo? Smaller outright lies and speaks terribly ill will and is worthy of harsh rejection. You are the pro-homo yet because you retain some dignity and respect, I do treat you accordingly. I am not in the least sorry for abhorring that which is evil. It’s the only way to keep one’s love from the sin of hypocrisy.

As to why and when and how we correct others. Think less about the delivery, think more about the need to stand corrected.

Ps 7:11 God [is] a just judge, And God is angry [with the wicked] every day.

Pr 14:12 There is a way [that seems] right to a man, But its end [is] the way of death.

Pr 28:26 He who trusts in his own heart is a fool, But whoever walks wisely will be delivered.

Pr 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding;

 

[beanieboy]

Originally posted by 1Way
Consider this

• Joh 15:13 "Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends.

What is the greater, if someone gives their life to save yours, or if they brought you a piece of candy but never tried to save you from eternal damnation? [/b][/color]

Here is a scenario our teacher told us:

An athiest, a Christian man, his Christian wife and their 5 year old are in a boat. The boat starts to sink, and the call for help. The boat is half way underwater when the 'copter arrives. There is only room for 3.

The Christian man steps over his child and wife to save himself, but says, "Oh, I'll get in first and then help you on."
The atheist sacrifices his life by helping the child and then the man's wife onto the craft, and then is pulled under the water.

What happens to the atheist, he asked.
"He goes to heaven!" I said.
"No," my teacher said. "Because he didn't have Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior."
"But he gave his own life to save anothers. There is no greater love. He acted like Jesus."
"But he didn't accept Jesus."
"Then I can't accept Jesus, either. If one can do what Jesus did, and it still isn't enough, no thanks."

(I was what they called a handful.)

Saving someone from the "eternal torments of hell" is hardly laying down your life.

 

[beanieboy]

Originally posted by 1Way

No wonder basically everyone despises your moronisms which is almost always full of hypocrisy and contradictory nonsense.

You can leave off these snide comments.

More clear?

 

[beanieboy]

Originally posted by 1Way
Smaller outright lies and speaks terribly ill will and is worthy of harsh rejection. You are the pro-homo yet because you retain some dignity and respect, I do treat you accordingly. I am not in the least sorry for abhorring that which is evil. It’s the only way to keep one’s love from the sin of hypocrisy.

Dude, I'm going to say this to you because I think it will help.
It'll be harsh, but as polite as possible, and truthful.

You don't follow your own text.
You are in love with your own ego.

Check this:
43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[8] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies[9] and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

You treat others as they treat you.
But you are called to love your neighbor as yourself.

Your are happy about saying "I abhor was is evil."

The very next verse says,
10Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves.

Does that mean being mean to someone who is mean to you?

17Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody.

You have just disobeyed this.

You must take all of the passage, or none.

Otherwise, you are a blind guide, with only half a road map.

 

[Delmar]

Originally posted by beanieboy

Didn't Jesus forgive the woman caught in adultery before he was crucified?

No I don't think the bible says that he did.

The story starts with these guys trying to trick him into asserting Jewish Law over Roman Law ...but Jesus knew they were trying to trick him. So he didn't answer. Instead he wrote stuff in the sand. verse 9 doesn't say what he wrote but it does say they were convicted by [their own] conscience and went out one by one.
Since Jewish law requires that a person can only be convicted by two or more witnesses he simply pointed out that there were no witnesses. So he didn't condemn her for 2 obvious reasons that I can see. 1 They were trying to trap him. 2 The there were no witnesses how could he condemn her and keep the law. So the fact that he didn't condemn her does not necessarily mean she repented and was forgiven. The bible doesn't speak to that issue in this case.

 

[beanieboy]

Originally posted by deardelmar

No I don't think the bible says that he did.

"Neither do I condemn you. Your sins have been forgiven*. Go and sin no more."

*pending my crucifiction.

Yes, it does say he did.

Mathew 9
1Jesus stepped into a boat, crossed over and came to his own town. 2Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven*."

*pending my crucifiction. Void where prohibited by law.

Luke 7
47Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven--for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little."
48Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven*."

*pending my crucifiction

May want to actually read the bible...

 

[On Fire]

Originally posted by beanieboy

"Neither do I condemn you. Your sins have been forgiven*. Go and sin no more."

*pending my crucifiction.

Yes, it does say he did.

Mathew 9
1Jesus stepped into a boat, crossed over and came to his own town. 2Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven*."

*pending my crucifiction. Void where prohibited by law.

Luke 7
47Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven--for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little."
48Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven*."

*pending my crucifiction

May want to actually read the bible...

And what exactly is your problem with Jesus personally forgiving sins prior to His crucifixion? If He told a few people, "Hey, your sins are forgiven", that's great! But when He died on the cross, He made it possible for EVERYONE'S sins to be forgiven. Even yours. Goat.

 

[Delmar]

Originally posted by beanieboy

"Neither do I condemn you. Your sins have been forgiven*. Go and sin no more."

*pending my crucifiction.

Yes, it does say he did.



May want to actually read the bible...

I'm pretty sure the version of the Bible that you just Quoted said "paraphrased "on the front. It means it is not a direct translation of what he said.

 

[beanieboy]

Can you back that up with your religious texts?