Why don't you tell us all what you think that bolded part means andy?
ECT MADist thought for the day
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Why don't you tell us all what you think that bolded part means andy?
:chuckle:
"Luke 24:46 -47 Then He said to them, "Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, "and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Yep the gospel is right there in the gospels of all places"-lost andycain
You made up that "the gospel of the kingdom" is equivalent to 1 Cor. !5:1-4 KJV. "You ignore...":
Luke 18 KJV
31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:
33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.
34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.
They were clueless, prior to the dbr actually happening, that the Lord Jesus Christ would die, and rise again. And yet, for 3 years, they were commanded to preach "the gospel of the kingdom."
NewDay
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Amen, me too.
NewDay
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I still attend for the fellowship...but, I agree with your assessment.
NewDay
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A couple of weeks ago, we had the Elders of the local Babtist church visit our home again. My husband had written them a letter explaining exactly what you just stated here, and why and how it is so wrong.
We sat down with them and had a very quiet discussion, until they saw that we were not going to be placed under their 'thumb', and then...well, they became a bit dogmatic and loud, for a bit. I spoke up and told them, that until they learned how to serve Jesus instead of their religion, they were not likely to be a Light in the community.
They left in a hurry then...after a handshake, which was rather cold...but, I gave 'em a hug anyways.
Sometimes you have to be bold enough to speak the truth, and let the chips fall where they will.
NewDay
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Yep, it is very possible to believe in vain...but, such a person has never been saved.
At least in mho.
andyc
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Luke 24:18-27
18 Then the one whose name was Cleopas answered and said to Him, "Are You the only stranger in Jerusalem, and have You not known the things which happened there in these days?" 19 And He said to them, "What things?" So they said to Him, "The things concerning Jesus of Nazareth, who was a Prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people, 20 "and how the chief priests and our rulers delivered Him to be condemned to death, and crucified Him. 21 "But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel. Indeed, besides all this, today is the third day since these things happened. 22 "Yes, and certain women of our company, who arrived at the tomb early, astonished us. 23 "When they did not find His body, they came saying that they had also seen a vision of angels who said He was alive. 24 "And certain of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said; but Him they did not see." 25 Then He said to them, "O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 "Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?" 27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.
Why would Jesus criticize people for not understanding things that you say were hidden from them by God?
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andyc
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How is it possible to believe in vain?
andyc
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There are two options for what Paul is talking about in this verse.
1) A person can believe in their mind, but not in their heart.
I've believed that Jesus died for me since a small child, but I didn't have a heart experience (born again) until I was 21.
2) A person can believe and be saved, but later revert to unbelief and so reject their salvation.
You can believe in vain by believing a perverted gospel such as you do andy.
You missed it-Luke 24 is after the fact, and you quote only 18-27
Read it:
Luke KJV
24 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.
2 And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre.
3 And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.
4 And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:
5 And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?
6 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,
7 Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.
8 And they remembered his words,
9 And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest.
10 It was Mary Magdalene and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles.
11 And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.
Read it:"the eleven" did not believe,"they believed them not," that He had rose, "the third day rise again." They thought it was "idle tales."
Luke 24 KJV
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
28 And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further.
29 But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them.
30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
33 And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,
34 Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.
35 And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.
36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
Read it-verses 45-46:
Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Then-only after the fact-they were clueless before it happened-they had no idea about the impending dbr-it was hid from them-below.
The Lord Jesus Christ during his earthly ministry, the apostles, and the disciples all preached "the gospel of the kingdom". "Gospel" means "good news", but there is more than one "gospel" in scripture, and, as previously mentioned, the confusion in Christianity results from the failure to understand the absolute necessity of "rightly dividing the word of truth"(2 Tim. 2:15 KJV), mainly failing to distinguish between the prophetic program as revealed in the Old Testament, and the mystery program that was revealed to Paul.
Nowhere in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John will you find 1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV being preached as the "good news", the basis for our salvation and justification. Nowhere.
Consider this. You cannot preach what you do not know. You cannot believe that which you do not know.
During the Lord Jesus Christ's earthly ministry, the apostles and disciples had no knowledge of his impending, death, burial, and resurrection:
"From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee" Mt. 16:21-22 KJV
Read it: Later, "From that time forth began Jesus" to tell them that He was going to die, and be raised=1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV-death, burial, resurrection. And, yet, earlier, for 3 years, they were preaching "the gospel of the kingdom." Thus, "the gospel of the kingdom" is not equivalent to 1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV. You can come to no other conclusion, if you are sane. Peter attempts to prevent His death, the very death that would reconcile him. Peter never preached 1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV, at least prior to the dbr.
"And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer! many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. And he spake that saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him." Mark 8:3-32 KJV
Again- "He began to teach them..." Obviously, Peter was attempting to prevent the Lord's death! If the death, burial, and resurrection was the grounds for Peter's salvation and justification(as Paul expounds on in his epistles), why was Peter trying to prevent the very thing that would be the basis for his justification? See also John 18:10 KJV. Did he ever preach 1 Cor. 15:1-4 at least prior to its occurrence? No. If he had, his rebuke of the Lord would be a non-sensical reaction, and Peter was smoking a bong.
"For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day. But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him." Mark 9:31-32 KJV
Read it-they were w/o a clue about the dbr.
"Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again. And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken." Luke 18:31-34 KJV
Read it: "they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them"
Again-only later:
"Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day...." Luke 24:45-46 KJV
"For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead." John 20:9 KJV
They did not know it or understand it prior to His death! They were not preaching 1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV.
Even after the Lord's death, burial, and resurrection, they initially did not believe it:
"And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted." Mt. 28:17 KJV
"And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not. After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country. And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them. Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen." Mark 16:11 KJV
"And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest. It was Mary Magdalene and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles. And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not." Luke 24:9-11 KJV
" And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?" Luke 24:41 KJV
Why? Even satan and his minions had no clue-part of the mystery...
1 Cor. 2 KJV
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
Had satan and the gang known of the consequences, ramifications, of the crucifixion, resurrection-they would not have done it. Get it? Pretty sharp God, eh? He "tricked" them.
A "secular" analogy-"He switched it...he did it to them.."
| "He swiched it..he did it to them..." | |
"There are two options for what Paul is talking about in this verse.
1) A person can believe in their mind, but not in their heart.
I've believed that Jesus died for me since a small child, but I didn't have a heart experience (born again) until I was 21.
2) A person can believe and be saved, but later revert to unbelief and so reject their salvation."-andycain
Nope.
1 Cor. 15 KJV
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now................
Thus, if you believe not that He rose again...
your faith is also vain.
The "tie" of Paul's "in vain" is resurrection.
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain
The context of 1Cor 15 is the reality of the literal bodily resurrection.
If these folks were indeed saved, they were saved by the gospel of the resurrection, but if there was no literal bodily resurrection then they had believed in vain/futility.
The 'if' in this verse is not expressing doubt about their salvation if they are really saved, but is simply saying that 'if' there is no literal resurrection, then there is no possibility for salvation.
The literal bodily resurrection of the LORD Jesus is central to the gospel and without it there is no gospel(good news), no salvation and no Christianity.
Paul is admonishing the Corinthians to hold fast to the gospel of the literal resurrection of Christ which they had received from him as opposed to the false teaching which says there is no literal resurrection. He is not saying that they could maintain or keep their salvation by 'holding fast', nor is he saying that salvation depends upon the strength of their memory, but upon the truth, the reality of the object upon which true faith is directed......the person and the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ.
1Co 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1Co 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
andyc
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Paul said to hold fast to the gospel he preached to them, not a perverted gospel.
andyc
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So basically the disciples should have known it, but they didn't because their theology was messed up. The kind of messiah they were expecting, and the kingdom they were expecting were not what was prophesied.
Amazingly you still believe in their wrong understanding of the messiah and kingdom.
andyc
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This is not the gospel that Paul preached to them.
He told them to hold fast to the gospel he preached to them (which they believed), so how could they have believed this gospel in vain?
andyc
New member
If there was no resurrection, everyone's faith would be in vain, but this is not related to the clause in verse 2.
if you hold fast that word which I preached to you unless you believed in vain.
To deny the resurrection would be to revert to a futile faith, but this was not the gospel originally presented to the Corinthians. So they did originally believe the right gospel, but if they then rejected it down the line, Paul says that they believed in vain.
I gave you chapter and verse, for you to go wash your brain in, that any sane man and a 6 year old,can understand, showing...:
- that the 12, while preaching "the gospel of the kingdom" for 3 years,at that time, knew NADA about impending death, burial, resurrection, prior to its occurrence-1 Cor. 15-1-4 KJV-death, burial, resurrection-"the" gospel -it was hid from them. And yet, they were preaching the gospel of the kingdom.
-That Peter attempted to prevent the Lord's death-death, burial, resurrection-1 Cor. 15-1-4 KJV-death, burial, resurrection.And yet, Peter was preaching the gospel of the kingdom.
-Even after the resurrection, the 11 did not initially believe it. 1 Cor. 15-1-4 KJV-death, burial, resurrection
"but they didn't because their theology was messed up"-andycain
Made up. It was hid from them, and from satan and his gang.
And what do we get from you? Mutterings...grunts...snorts...In my opinion.....and a craft dismissal......Well, you see, their theology was messed up, you see, uh, urr........
Made up-it was hid from them.
"This is not the gospel that Paul preached to them."-andycain
What a mess.
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Read it, loser-the point was resurrection:
12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
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