Katrina Damage

[PureX]

Either you really like to use hyperbole, or you actually haven't been talking about ratios this whole time. :think:

So, basically the idea here is to distract us all from the subject at hand by arguing over the exact way in which I worded my position? So now we aren't talking about the connection between race and poverty, and instead we're discussing my writing skills? Doesn't this seem ... well, kind of like a cheap trick?

 

[PureX]

Blacks make up about 12% of the population. About 25% of blacks are in poverty compared with 11% of whites, 10% of Asians and 22% of Hispanics.

So blacks and hispanics (non-whites) make up almost half of the nation's poor, while they only make up about a quarter of the overall population. This would appear to be an effect based on race, that correlates with poverty.

 

[PureX]

25% of blacks are in poverty but only 10% of Asians (less than whites)

But what percentage of the overall population is asian? I suspect it's quite small. Less than 10% I'd bet. So in fact asians would be more likely to be poor than whites, too, same as blacks and hispanics.

 

[PureX]

FYI Koban, PureX and his ilk have a habit of manufacturing 'statistics' to bolster their liberal agenda. You get used to it after awhile, but it never ceases to amaze me how much :cow: these guys are willing to pull out of their assses......

Please show me the post where I "manufactured statistics". So far Koban is the only one who's posted any statistics. So it looks like we can add the title "liar" to fool and racist, huh BB?

 

[Gaviidae]

But what percentage of the overall population is asian? I suspect it's quite small. Less than 10% I'd bet. So in fact asians would be more likely to be poor than whites, too, same as blacks and hispanics.

It doesn't matter what percentage of the population is asian. 10% of asians are poor. 11% of whites are poor. Therefore, asians are less likely to be poor than whites. IN FACT

 

[PureX]

PureX

Wrong, though yes there is discrimination - but for all of us - our worst enimeis are ourselves - black, white, yellow, purple... if we allow ourselves to say what we have been overcome with is beyond our capacity to deal with, well that is the start of the downward spiral. Most Americans do not discriminate, yes some are apathetic, but the truth is that there is more harm done by people who want to help - the concept of knowing how to help needs to be explored... so how do you suggest that those of us who know what dificulties Black people face - how do we help them?

I think we often discriminate against people without realizing that we're doing it. In our minds we justify and rationalize our negative assessments of people by blaming them for not measuring up to our idea of who we think they should be. We don't understand that it's not the responsibility of others to be who we think they should be. And when we treat them badly because they won't accomodate our selfishness, that's discrimination. And when it's focussed on race, it's racial discrimination.

I think we do mix biases, though, in such a way as to make this all hard to identify. For example, are we really discriminating against people because of the color of their skin, or because of their cultural manerisms? Do their cultural manerisms make us uncomfortable just because they're different, or because we aren't "in control" of them? Maybe a lot of our bias against other people has more to do with their resisting our control than their actual race. I think both of these are very true. "Racism" isn't really just about race. It's about a lot of things, and it manifests in a lot of subtle and different ways as a result.

I'm not denying that people who experience racism should take responsibility for how they react to it. But what I'm seeing on this thread is a very strong urge to focus all our attention and blame on only the negative reactions to racism, while completely ignoring and dismissing our own part in it, which is to ignore the 'first cause'.

 

[Gaviidae]

Please show me the post where I "manufactured statistics". So far Koban is the only one who's posted any statistics. So it looks like we can add the title "liar" to fool and racist, huh BB?

Here's one example: 98% of the poorest people in New Orleans were black

And Army of One posted a nice list here.

 

[PureX]

It doesn't matter what percentage of the population is asian. 10% of asians are poor. 11% of whites are poor. Therefore, asians are less likely to be poor than whites. IN FACT

If 10% of the poor are asians, but asians make up only 3% of the overall population, that means they are three times more likely to be poor than the rest of the population. If blacks make up 25% of the poor, but they make up only 12% of the overall population, then they are twice as likely to be poor than the rest of the population.

If asians are less likely to be poor, I suspect there are a couple of reasons for this: one is that their skin is considered white by most white people. Another is that they're particular cultural manerisms tend to promote an image of subservience. And I believe that a lot of our discomfort with cultural (racial) differences comes from our desire to be in control of others, and from our fear of not being able to control them because they're "different".

 

[PureX]

Here's one example: 98% of the poorest people in New Orleans were black

And Army of One posted a nice list here.

The 98% came from someone's post earlier on this thread. And it's what the various news people have been claiming.

 

[koban]

So, basically the idea here is to distract us all from the subject at hand by arguing over the exact way in which I worded my position? So now we aren't talking about the connection between race and poverty, and instead we're discussing my writing skills? Doesn't this seem ... well, kind of like a cheap trick?

What - you want me to argue your point more effectively than you do? :rotfl:

 

[Gaviidae]

If 10% of the poor are asians, but asians make up only 3% of the overall population, that means they are three times more likely to be poor than the rest of the population.

Yes, that is true. But 10% of the poor are not asians, as I stated twice 10% of asians are poor.

The 98% came from someone's post earlier on this thread. And it's what the various news people have been claiming.

The 98% number came from my earlier post. But when I posted it the number represented the percentage of residents of the Lower 9th Ward that were black. It had nothing to do with income or the city as a whole. You took the number and "manufactured" a new statistic for it to represent.

 

[PureX]

The 98% number came from my earlier post. But when I posted it the number represented the percentage of residents of the Lower 9th Ward that were black. It had nothing to do with income or the city as a whole. You took the number and "manufactured" a new statistic for it to represent.

Well, you didn't qualify the number at the time. I wasn't "manufacturing" anything, I was restating it as I understood you to mean it. Also, what ward they lived in is not relevant in any way that I can see, and I doubt that the percentage will drop significantly if you include the entire city.

But of course all this whole conversation about me does is serve to distract us from the unpleasant reality of racism and poverty in America. Why not just address that issue?

 

[servent101]

PureX

I think we often discriminate against people without realizing that we're doing it. In our minds we justify and rationalize our negative assessments of people by blaming them for not measuring up to our idea of who we think they should be. We don't understand that it's not the responsibility of others to be who we think they should be. And when we treat them badly because they won't accomodate our selfishness, that's discrimination. And when it's focussed on race, it's racial discrimination.

I think we do mix biases, though, in such a way as to make this all hard to identify. For example, are we really discriminating against people because of the color of their skin, or because of their cultural manerisms? Do their cultural manerisms make us uncomfortable just because they're different, or because we aren't "in control" of them? Maybe a lot of our bias against other people has more to do with their resisting our control than their actual race. I think both of these are very true. "Racism" isn't really just about race. It's about a lot of things, and it manifests in a lot of subtle and different ways as a result.

This I agree with - that yes most people do discriminate without knowing it, and most peole include black people as well... this is life as it is it seems, and we have to adapt and as you say find ways so that the "all of us" will all smarten up.

With Christ's Love

Servent101

 

[Gaviidae]

Well, you didn't qualify the number at the time. I wasn't "manufacturing" anything, I was restating it as I understood you to mean it. Also, what ward they lived in is not relevant in any way that I can see, and I doubt that the percentage will drop significantly if you include the entire city.

You're manufacturing statistics again. I say that 98% of part of New Orleans is black and now you're claiming that percentage would hold up if you include the entire city. A city that you (and the US Census) stated earlier is composed of only 67% blacks.

So which is it? 98% of New Orleans is black or 67% is black? (hint: it's the second number, the first one you are manufacturing)

As far as my qualifying it, I specifically stated that it referred to the number of blacks living in a certain neighborhood. I mentioned NOTHING about income levels.

Oh, and as far as what ward they're living in being relevant it is relevant because not all of New Orleans was flooded equally. My point was that the area that was most severely flooded was also the area that was almost entirely black. And that would explain the reason such a high number of people that were stranded were black.

But of course all this whole conversation about me does is serve to distract us from the unpleasant reality of racism and poverty in America. Why not just address that issue?

Because if we can't even agree on the indisputable facts how do we agree on or even discuss the wider subject?

 

[servent101]

Gaviiday

Because if we can't even agree on the indisputable facts how do we agree on or even discuss the wider subject?

We will appear stupid, just so that no one thinks were trying to be smart... don't give up hope - we are for the most part just sort of blowing off steam and trying to do some back yard philosphizing... it is not like were giving a discourse to the leaders of the various nations at the U.N.

We can all agree that were just sort of yackyidy yacks - and trying to sort things out and share our ideas with others. Sometimes just by accident someone says something worth note... even me, sometimes PureX - but not as often as me... and for you - well you just are the same as the rest of us, I guess. Try the prayer that changed more lives than watching Mash on T.V. it goes... I am a man, but I can change if I have to, I guess.


With Christ's Love

Servent101

 

[Army of One]

So, basically the idea here is to distract us all from the subject at hand by arguing over the exact way in which I worded my position? So now we aren't talking about the connection between race and poverty, and instead we're discussing my writing skills? Doesn't this seem ... well, kind of like a cheap trick?

Allow me to sum this up for you again, PureX.

Throughout this thread, you have repeatedly claimed that the majority of poor in America are black (majority=over 50%), even going as far as to say that all the poor were black.

Stats were provided that illustrate that blacks in fact do not account for the majority of the poor.

You then said that all you had claimed was that blacks were disproportionately poor.

I simply quoted your own posts, to show that you had in fact claimed that the majority of poor in America are black. It certainly seemed like a relevant point to me, seeing as how you have been portraying all white people as either directly or indirectly rascist, based on your "stats" that all the poor are black.

It has nothing to do with your writing skills. Did I point out any grammar or spelling mistakes? Did I critique your writing style, or the flow of your posts? Of course not. I simply pointed out, using your own words, that you were wrong in a critical point of your argument. Hardly a cheap shot.

 

[BillyBob]

So it looks like we can add the title "liar" to fool and racist, huh BB?

Sure, if you want me to call you a liar as well as a fool and a racist, I will happily comply.

 

[BillyBob]

If you wanna talk about ratios, compare the percentage of blacks in America to the the percentage of blacks in prison.

:shocked:

Blacks make up about 20% of the population in the US. [I couldn't find exact statistics]

Blacks make up about half the population of incarcerated inmates in the US.


:think:

 

[PureX]

PureX

This I agree with - that yes most people do discriminate without knowing it, and most people include black people as well... this is life as it is it seems, and we have to adapt and as you say find ways so that the "all of us" will all smarten up.

I agree that both black and white people are guilty of discrimination, but in this case, white people have the power, and the money, and therefor they control the access to opportunity. And they vastly outnumber black people, as well. So the effect of white discrimination against black people is very powerful and pervasive, while the effect of black discrimination against white people is far less so. This is why I believe that the onus is on white people, first, to begin facing up to their discrimination and trying to lessen it's really harmful effects.

 

[PureX]

You're manufacturing statistics again. I say that 98% of part of New Orleans is black and now you're claiming that percentage would hold up if you include the entire city. A city that you (and the US Census) stated earlier is composed of only 67% blacks.

I think you should reread my post. I offered no statistics, I only offered an opinion about your statistic (which I did not disagree with), and that opinion was not that the "percentage would hold up if you include the entire city". I wrote; "I doubt that the percentage will drop significantly".

So which is it? 98% of New Orleans is black or 67% is black? (hint: it's the second number, the first one you are manufacturing)

And you're still busily avoiding the ratio between race and poverty. Why is that? Suddenly I'm surrounded by lawyers, desperately trying to overwhelm the jury with lots of irrelevant factoids, hoping they'll lose sight of the crime all together.

Oh, and as far as what ward they're living in being relevant it is relevant because not all of New Orleans was flooded equally. My point was that the area that was most severely flooded was also the area that was almost entirely black. And that would explain the reason such a high number of people that were stranded were black.

Well, no, not really. All is shows is that they didn't have any way of getting out. If a white neighborhood had flooded, and there were many thousands of white people caught in the flood, it would tell us that they didn't have a way of getting out, too. But the white people did have a way of getting out, because they had cars and credit cards. The black people could have gotten out too, if they'd have had cars and credit cards. But they didn't. The parts of New Orleans that are not flooded arebasically the business {mostly hotels) district and the French Quarter. These are not residential areas - few people of any color live there. And those that do are wealthy.

Because if we can't even agree on the indisputable facts how do we agree on or even discuss the wider subject?

So, you don't believe that people of color are discriminated against in America, or that if they are, it's their responsibility to overcome it by working harder, or by being more subservient, or whatever?

Or are you just disagreeing with the idea that you might have some responsibility for who is poor and why?