Katrina Damage

[koban]

:shocked:




I meant for a snack :doh:

 

[wickwoman]

:shocked:




I meant for a snack :doh:

Oh, I'm against that too.

 

[koban]

Even if he's dead?

What do think's been in the sandwiches at the Redneck's Club? :chuckle:

 

[PureX]

There are some problems related to racial prejudice. I am willing to acknowledge it. But what started us down this road is snipers shooting at rescue helicopters. And this cannot be excused by racial prejudice. We cannot excuse very bad behavior. It only encourages a mindset of blame that is counter productive.

All I see is that you want us to accept blame. Asking "so what do we do" is indicating we'd like an activity that could be helpful to poor black people. That would be productive. Blame is counterproductive. That's the attitude behind the circle of poverty sometimes. It's the idea that you are owed something and that you shouldn't have to work as hard as everyone else.

I'm not interested in blame, I'm interested in people taking responsibility. The problem persists because white people continue to treat black people badly because they're black. We excuse and justify this behavior by focussing all our attention on those black people we feel deserve to be treated badly. And while we're doing this, we conveniently ignore all the instances in which black people are treated badly, unfairly. And we also conveniently ignore the fact that much of the behavior that we deem "deserving" of our indignation is itself the result of our own bad behavior.

The only way to begin to deal with this self-perpetuating system of socio-economic ostricism is to face the reality that it begins within our own selves. It begins with our wanting to avoid people that make us uncomfortable because we're better off than they are economically, or because they're a different skin color than we are, or because they have different cultural mannerisms. We need to make ourselves look past our own comfort zone to the reality that when we collectively ignore and ostricise people for such silly reasons, and we do so multiplied by hundreds of millions of us, and by many decades, the accumulation of this collective oscticism has a powerful and very hurtful effect on a lot of people. It's a big reason why we have so many poor people in this country, and why poor people tend to stay poor, and why so many of the poor people in America are black.

It's not that the white people in America got together and decided to shut black people out of the upper classes and power bases in America. It's more subconscious and automatic than that. Yet the effect is somewhat the same. And the only way to counter it is for white people to make a conscious effort to stop it. And that's what I agitating for an admition of "guilt". Because that's where I think we need to begin changing the way we think and act toward the "underclasses" that we have created through our selfishness and ignorance.

 

[wickwoman]

I just don't identify with any of that you posted, Purex, so perhaps you are just preaching to the choir. This is probably the first time I've found myself on this side of the racism argument. But, at some point, we have to stop making excuses. I'm all for understanding. But I have no reason to feel guilty as far as I can see in this matter. If I did, I remedied it long ago.

 

[Gaviidae]

I'm not interested in blame, I'm interested in people taking responsibility. The problem persists because white people continue to treat black people badly because they're black.

Hmmm...I'm a white person. I do not and have never treated black people (or people of any other color) badly because they're black.

It begins with our wanting to avoid people that make us uncomfortable because we're better off than they are economically ...or because they have different cultural mannerisms.

I have actually tried to mingle with people of different economic classes and it has not worked. We're too different and I've found myself forced to avoid intermingling with them more and more.

As far as avoiding people with different cultural mannerisms why would I not want to avoid them? For example, I used to take the bus into Seattle every weekday. I did not like when a group of people got on the bus and were very loud. That was their cultural mannerism. They liked to be loud. Why would I not want to avoid them? I'm not saying ostracize them, I'm just saying if I have the choice between two bus routes, one has more loud people on it I'll chose the one with fewer loud people. Yet you would call me wrong for doing that?

 

[Gaviidae]

I find this discussion on race interesting but it seems to no longer have anything to do with this thread. Should we start a new thread? Is there any interest in actually discussing this further?

 

[PureX]

Hmmm...I'm a white person. I do not and have never treated black people (or people of any other color) badly because they're black.

I have actually tried to mingle with people of different economic classes and it has not worked. We're too different and I've found myself forced to avoid intermingling with them more and more.

As far as avoiding people with different cultural mannerisms why would I not want to avoid them? For example, I used to take the bus into Seattle every weekday. I did not like when a group of people got on the bus and were very loud. That was their cultural mannerism. They liked to be loud. Why would I not want to avoid them? I'm not saying ostracize them, I'm just saying if I have the choice between two bus routes, one has more loud people on it I'll chose the one with fewer loud people. Yet you would call me wrong for doing that?

This is a common response. Instead of accepting responsibility for being part of a collective culture that has and does practice racism, we ignore the collective all together and focus only on ourselves. WE aren't racists. WE haven't oppressed anyone.

Yet we are part of a collective culture. And we have benefitted from that culture's racism because the racial prejiduce that it practices favors our race and oppresses others. We didn't ask for this, perhaps, and we didn't actively support it, but we also didn't refuse the advantages it gave us, and we also didn't speak out against it when it denied these advantages to others. And the result of our complacency is the real suffering of others.

 

[PureX]

But, at some point, we have to stop making excuses. I'm all for understanding. But I have no reason to feel guilty as far as I can see in this matter. If I did, I remedied it long ago.

I'm not really interested in anyone feeling guilty, just in making them aware of their own complicity. That alone will begin the ball rolling toward change.

 

[Gaviidae]

Yet we are part of a collective culture. And we have benefitted from that culture's racism because the racial prejiduce that it practices favors our race and oppresses others. We didn't ask for this, perhaps, and we didn't actively support it, but we also didn't refuse the advantages it gave us, and we also didn't speak out against it when it denied these advantages to others. And the result of our complacency is the real suffering of others.

We being Americans? Or we being who?

Perhaps you don't speak out against racial prejudice but I do. And perhaps you have received advantages because of it but I have not. In fact, I could argue that because of affirmative action I have received disadvantages because of my race.

It still seems odd to me that the only people that you think need to change to help blacks who act "black" is other people.

Perhaps this is a regional difference. We have few blacks out here in Washington state. Other minorities (Indian, American Indian, Asian, Hispanic) make up most of the non-white population here. And I've seen them succeed despite the racial differences.

 

[PureX]

Things have gotten better, yet the facts of racism remain for all to see. All the white people in America insist that it's not THEM that's racist, that it must be the other white people. And yet the facts of racism remain for all to see. If you ask me it's the squirming and blaming itself that tells the tale. "Me thinks thou (we) do'st protest too much!"

 

[BillyBob]

Things have gotten better, yet the facts of racism remain for all to see.

What facts?

All the white people in America insist that it's not THEM that's racist,

Not so, there are plenty who openly admit their racism.

that it must be the other white people. And yet the facts of racism remain for all to see.

What facts?

If you ask me it's the squirming and blaming itself that tells the tale. "Me thinks thou (we) do'st protest too much!"

I see, so when we get falsely accused, we are not supposed to respond? :doh:

 

[koban]

Things have gotten better, yet the facts of racism remain for all to see. All the white people in America insist that it's not THEM that's racist, that it must be the other white people. And yet the facts of racism remain for all to see. If you ask me it's the squirming and blaming itself that tells the tale. "Me thinks thou (we) do'st protest too much!"

Let's get our terms straight, shall we?

I had always understood racism to mean an established, institutionalized system of opression. If you're claiming that such a system is still in place, please clarify.

It sounds to me that what your talking about here is what I have always heard called prejudice.

If that's the case, and you're asking us to admit our own prejudices, than I freely will. But you better make sure that the same faults are being recognized by those on the other side of the argument.

 

[PureX]

Let's get our terms straight, shall we?

I had always understood racism to mean an established, institutionalized system of opression. If you're claiming that such a system is still in place, please clarify.

Prejudice based on race is called racial prejudice, or "racism" for short.

Also, I think it's important to understand that systematic oppression often does not require that there be some secret meeting where the power elite get together and consciously decide to overtly or covertly oppress some other group. I don't believe that this sort of thing happens, anymore, as I believe it once did in America.

What happens, instead, is racial oppression as the result of a cumulative, unspoken, and even unconscious prejudice being practiced by a lot of members of the racial majority against a racial minority. The fact of the matter is that all other conditions being equal (which never actually happens) a white man will hire a white man over a black man, and he will not be aware that he's practicing a prejudice. Instead, he'll take the discomfort he feels with the black man simply because the black man is "different" and he'll interpret this discomfort as his intuiting some hidden flaw that justifies his judging the black man a lesser candidate. This sort of prejudice is subtle, and easy for us to hide from ourselves, yet the cumulative effect of it across millions of job interviews is a lot of lost job opportunities for a lot of black applicants. And a lot of white applicants (who of course believe that they were the better candidates for the job) getting those opportunities unfairly, without realizing it.

This is why white people never believe that they practice prejudice as individuals, or that they've ever gotten any breaks because of racial prejudice, while the effect of our racial prejudice remains evident for anyone who's willing to look at it. Most poor people are black, and most black people are poor, and unless you believe that either blacks want to be poor, or that they are inherently inferior in some way, then the only explanation for their being in this position decade after decade is racial oppression.

If that's the case, and you're asking us to admit our own prejudices, than I freely will. But you better make sure that the same faults are being recognized by those on the other side of the argument.

What I'm asking is that we not only admit our prejudice, but admit the EFFECT that that our prejudice has had on those we are prejudiced against. Their suffering IS the result of our prejudice, while they prejudice against us is the result of our causing them to suffer. This is what I'm asking, and this is what so many of us are trying really, really hard to deny, obscure, obfuscate, and otherwise ignore any way we can.

 

[koban]

Prejudice based on race is called racial prejudice, or "racism" for short.

Also, I think it's important to understand that systematic oppression often does not require that there be some secret meeting where the power elite get together and consciously decide to overtly or covertly oppress some other group. I don't believe that this sort of thing happens, anymore, as I believe it once did in America.

Good, I was hoping you weren't going to argue that it still does.

What happens, instead, is racial oppression as the result of a cumulative, unspoken, and even unconscious prejudice being practiced by a lot of members of the racial majority against a racial minority. The fact of the matter is that all other conditions being equal (which never actually happens) a white man will hire a white man over a black man

Not in any job environment I've worked in. My past employers have been so eager to get a qualified black to meet their racial quotas that some unfortunate choices in hiring have been made.

, and he will not be aware that he's practicing a prejudice. Instead, he'll take the discomfort he feels with the black man simply because the black man is "different" and he'll interpret this discomfort as his intuiting some hidden flaw that justifies his judging the black man a lesser candidate. This sort of prejudice is subtle, and easy for us to hide from ourselves, yet the cumulative effect of it across millions of job interviews is a lot of lost job opportunities for a lot of black applicants. And a lot of white applicants (who of course believe that they were the better candidates for the job) getting those opportunities unfairly, without realizing it.

This is why white people never believe that they practice prejudice as individuals, or that they've ever gotten any breaks because of racial prejudice, while the effect of our racial prejudice remains evident for anyone who's willing to look at it. Most poor people are black

I doubt it

, and most black people are poor, and unless you believe that either blacks want to be poor, or that they are inherently inferior in some way, then the only explanation for their being in this position decade after decade is racial oppression.

There's a third possibilty. They're lazy.

Now, before you get all up in arms, let me qualify that by stating it's human nature to be lazy. I'm lazy, you're lazy, all God's chilluns is lazy.

I'm hard working, I'm sure you are too. But I always look for the easiest way to do a task.

And, like it or not, most blacks aren't going to be successful unless they can integrate into the main society, which is overwhelmingly white. And that's hard, it requires overcoming resentments and entering situations that will be incomfortable.

What I'm asking is that we not only admit our prejudice, but admit the EFFECT that that our prejudice has had on those we are prejudiced against. Their suffering IS the result of our prejudice, while they prejudice against us is the result of our causing them to suffer. This is what I'm asking, and this is what so many of us are trying really, really hard to deny, obscure, obfuscate, and otherwise ignore any way we can.

I will not admit to being prejudiced against blacks. Too many of my friends and associates who are rural are prejudiced for me not to recognize it. I will admit to being prejudiced against people of any color who dress or act like they don't respect themselves (and thus can't be expected to respect others)

 

[Gaviidae]

Not in any job environment I've worked in. My past employers have been so eager to get a qualified black to meet their racial quotas that some unfortunate choices in hiring have been made.

Which unfortunately, just reinforces the stereotype that blacks are bad workers.

We saw it in school. When you had to pick lab partners you never wanted to team up with a minority. You couldn't tell if they were affirmative action students or just regular students. Even the non-affirmative action minorities did this. Unfortunately, what happens is that this reinforces to the whites the notion to stick with people like them and when they get stuck with an affirmative action minority that minorities are dumber. And to minorities it reinforces that they are prejudiced against because of their skin.

 

[PureX]

Not in any job environment I've worked in. My past employers have been so eager to get a qualified black to meet their racial quotas that some unfortunate choices in hiring have been made.

Well, I don't know what line of work you're in, but it's not the norm. Very few businesses are required to meet racial quotas.

There's a third possibilty. They're lazy.

Now, before you get all up in arms, let me qualify that by stating it's human nature to be lazy. I'm lazy, you're lazy, all God's chilluns is lazy.

I'm hard working, I'm sure you are too. But I always look for the easiest way to do a task.

And, like it or not, most blacks aren't going to be successful unless they can integrate into the main society, which is overwhelmingly white. And that's hard, it requires overcoming resentments and entering situations that will be incomfortable.

So you're saying that black people are lazy because they won't do all the work of overcoming white people's social prejudices? Why should they have to overcome the prejudice of others? And how can they possibly do this, anyway?

I'm surprised that you would post something this racially prejudiced while you're so sure that you aren't racially prejudiced.

I will not admit to being prejudiced against blacks. Too many of my friends and associates who are rural are prejudiced for me not to recognize it. I will admit to being prejudiced against people of any color who dress or act like they don't respect themselves (and thus can't be expected to respect others)

Amazing. "It's not their skin color, it's the way they dress and talk and act!" hahaha

 

[BillyBob]

Prejudice based on race is called racial prejudice, or "racism" for short.

It's also called 'Affirmative Action'.

 

[koban]

Well, I don't know what line of work you're in, but it's not the norm. Very few businesses are required to meet racial quotas.

Major university, then Fortune 500 company

So you're saying that black people are lazy because they won't do all the work of overcoming white people's social prejudices?

No, I'm saying that it's human nature to take the easier path. And for all too many of the dis-enfranchised, be they white, yellow, brown or black, it's easier to hang with your homeys in the hood and gripe about how the system's stacked against you.

Why should they have to overcome the prejudice of others?

:doh:


Why indeed? Perhaps to integrate into the greater society where there are greater chances for success?

And how can they possibly do this, anyway?

In my experience - by working their butts off to prove their competence. Then they will be accepted on their own merits. Just like everybody else. I never walked into a job and was told "Hey - you're white. Don't bother trying to do a good job, we're just glad to have you here."

I'm surprised that you would post something this racially prejudiced while you're so sure that you aren't racially prejudiced.

I can only respond with an anecdote. Years ago I was talking to one of my rural friends (Canadian, as it happens). This fellow was in his seventies, a retired farmer, small town all his life. We were talking about living in the city, which I was at the time. He asked me if I knew any blacks and my first response was that no, I didn't. After I left I was mulling it over and started laughing. My boss, who was a good friend was black. Two co-workers that I had worked alongside for two years were black. My next door neighbor was black. But I didn't think of them as "black". They were Patrick and Ramona and Bettie and John to me.

Amazing. "It's not their skin color, it's the way they dress and talk and act!" hahaha

Really Purex, I expect better of you.

If I see a group of rowdy kids hanging out on the corner with 40 ouncers getting high I don't care what color their skin is, I'm going to give them a wide berth. And if they come to a job interview looking slovenly and sullen, again, I don't care what their skin color is, I'm not hiring them.

 

[PureX]

No, I'm saying that it's human nature to take the easier path. And for all too many of the dis-enfranchised, be they white, yellow, brown or black, it's easier to hang with your homeys in the hood and gripe about how the system's stacked against you.

Then why are the poor overwhelmingly non-white? Are you saying that non-whites are more lazy than whites, and that's why they prefer to "hang our with their homeys" while white people are busy working hard and getting ahead? You're claiming that poor people are poor because they're lazy. But you're trying not to say that people of color are more lazy than white people. Yet poor people are mostly people of color in this country, so if you're saying that poor people are lazy, then you're also saying that people of color are lazy, which is untrue and racist.

Why indeed? Perhaps to integrate into the greater society where there are greater chances for success?

And you really don't think that people are being locked out of this "integration" regardless of their efforts? How do you explain that one white immigrant group after another has come to America as unwanted aliens, and integrated themselves within one or two generations while black people have been here for many generations and still have not been integrated. Do you really believe that this is all their fault?

In my experience - by working their butts off to prove their competence. Then they will be accepted on their own merits. Just like everybody else. I never walked into a job and was told "Hey - you're white. Don't bother trying to do a good job, we're just glad to have you here."

No, they thought; "you're white, we know you'll be able meet our expectations" while they thought "he's black, he'll have to work his butt off to prove to us that he can live up to our expectations, and if he slips up in any way, it'll prove that he is inferior, just as I already suspect him to be". In fact, the black man is expected to fail, which is why he has to prove himself, while the white man is expected to succeed, which is why he'll get the job first and have to prove he's a failure to lose it.

The expectations are grossly biased, which makes a person of color have to work unfairly hard to overcome expectations that are biased against him. And ultimately, he will never overcome the expectations of a bigot, no matter what he does, because the bigot will always see what he expects to see - the inferiority of the "other". Yet the bigot will never realize that he's a bigot, and that he'll remain biased against people of color no matter how hard they try to overcome his bias. Person "A" can never overcome the bias of person "B" because it's not person "A"s bias. We can't reach into the minds and hearts of others and change them. And only a fool would try, or expect other people to try.

I can only respond with an anecdote. Years ago I was talking to one of my rural friends (Canadian, as it happens). This fellow was in his seventies, a retired farmer, small town all his life. We were talking about living in the city, which I was at the time. He asked me if I knew any blacks and my first response was that no, I didn't. After I left I was mulling it over and started laughing. My boss, who was a good friend was black. Two co-workers that I had worked alongside for two years were black. My next door neighbor was black. But I didn't think of them as "black". They were Patrick and Ramona and Bettie and John to me.

And yet you still seem to think it's perfectly natural that they should have to work their butts off to meet the expectation of biased white people even though that's unfair and ultimately impossible. What a good friend you are.

If I see a group of rowdy kids hanging out on the corner with 40 ouncers getting high I don't care what color their skin is, I'm going to give them a wide berth. And if they come to a job interview looking slovenly and sullen, again, I don't care what their skin color is, I'm not hiring them.

How safety minded of you.