My original post to Wilber was intended to see how consistent he was willing to be..with his definition of "Christian"
I ask him basically if it was Christ like to use physical force, since Jesus at times did use force against his enemies, both personally and through the apostle Paul.
So he can't say, even if he wants to confine God to the 4 gospels, it's not Christ like to ever use physical force against the enemies of God.
Although I hate to dissect Crow's POTD, I think a further examination is in order.
O come now, you don't hate it at all
You might "hate" my responce though..
I fully believe that with prayer, instead of guns, Sadaam Hussein could have dropped dead of a heart attack, eaten rotten meat or whatever and died if that were God's plan.
No, you do NOT fully believe that, IF you believe in self defense.
You said: " I do not think Jesus has excluded legitimate self-defence from his ethic." This contradicts your idea that if it's God's will to destroy a genocidal raping murderer,we wouldn't have to lift a finger.., just pray..You are not consistant..If it's God's will that you be defended from such a person, why would he need YOUR help?
If It's God's will for the attack to stop, you won't have to lift a finger to do anything to assist God.., Right?
Or if your child is being gang raped...You can just pray to God while it's happening..and if nothing happens you will then know it was his will for you and your child..And hey, to prove it to your child, when he asked you why all you did was pray, you can give him an answer by confining God to a few verses in the 4 gospels.
"Maybe God wanted to kill Sadaam but instead he is alive to serve as some sort of inspiration to those who followed him".
Yes, Saddam is an inspiration to all other potential child raping, genocidal lunatics that Christians will come to your defense, with, "It's all God's will", don't worry, carry on...
"Without the EXPLICIT command of God... YES. It would be a sin. Pagans and others have always tried to turn us from the faith. But the beauty of Christianity, real Christianity is we can stand in the face of persecution, ridicule and abuse because we stand with the Christ who was likewise ridiculed and abused. SATAN himself tried to turn Jesus from His faith. Maybe some pagan peon would be just the challenge we need to grow in our faith... not to put his eyes out."
You admit that Jesus didn't exclude self defense, can you show me where he specifically says it's ok for YOU to defend yourself and your family?
Did he come and personally tell you it was ok, did he tell you specificaly in any verses self defense is ok? And if not is it wrong?
You say below that it's a SIN to use physical violence, unless Jesus gives you SPECIFIC commands..
If you can't show me a specific teaching or command by Jesus that allows for YOU to defend yourself.., then by your own words you are sinning..
Of course since Jesus in the 4 gospels didn't say, "America, go kill off nazis", we were wrong to destroy hitler's regime also. That was un Christlike..to the nazis..,right? But I'm pretty sure you wouldn't tell the Jews it was unChrist like..to them would you?
"We should have allowed nazis to rape, murder and torture you.."
"It was unGodly of us to stop that..." "We should have just prayed..about it"
Do you think the good samaritine would have been labled a bad samaritine by Jesus, if he had come along while the attack was under way and used physical force to stop it, even if he had to kill..?
Actually, I would have a problem with that unless I had invited you over. I do not think Jesus has excluded legitimate self-defense from his ethic. But I think it should be a last resort. And personal self-defense is a FAR different matter than nations taking up arms against nations... especially in some kind of pre-emptory war. That is what Vietnam was sold to us as. It was the was to keep America safe, because if Vietnam fell we were going to be fighting the commies on our soil. Well we lost some 50,000 fine young men, lost Vietnam and the commies never arrived on our doorstep. Premptory violence just breed contempt and more violence.
Interesting..You would have a problem with me if I saw someone break into your house and then heard cries coming from inside, if I came in univited by you and tried to stop him?
Who would you run off, me or the person trying to murder you?
"Preemptory violence just breed contempt and more violence."
How do YOU define preemptory violence? Saddem murdered around a million people. His regime tortured, raped and murdered school kids..both in his country and Kuwait.
Was Israel wrong to preemptively take out Saddems nuke program?
I guarantee that cop doesn't want to pull the trigger. If he does he is a bad cop.
And I would say if he hesitates, he is a bad cop..I would say if while a criminal is gunning down a play ground full of kids and he hesitates to stop him, because you or Wilber were his adviser, I would say he, you and Wilber have done a bad thing..
"But, in the line of duty he has to do it sometimes. But he is the rightfully selected arm of the authorities we are to obey and he is acting to stop abhorrent criminal behavior."
I don't think Wilber allows for this.. and you really can't allow for it in terms of personal self defense, unless Jesus tells you it's ok..
"Should that same cop go into a neighborhood where drugs are being sold and kill all of the 15-20 year lod boys because they are the ones most likely to use drugs?! Of course not, but that is the kind of mentality it takes to drop into other countries and kill "suspected terrorists" without any evidence or right to trial. That is evil. All of these children who have been killed who couldn't have possibly been terrorists".
You say it's evil for a cop to do such a thing, but you try to argue by using king Herod's example, that God wanted saddem's regime to stay in power for the very reason you claim would be evil...
Saddem's regime murdered, tortured and raped innocent teens. Was HIS preemptive rape and torture strikes wrong?
According to your Christian views, if God doesn't want that cop to murder innocent teens...He will DIRECTLY stop him...we are free from any responsiblities..
"Christians suffered and died by the hundreds and thousands in the first three centuries and the Gospel spread like wildfire."
Then how dare you support self defense in the name of Jesus Christ and hinder the Gospel..
How does anyone KNOW that God wants the U.S. to remain a superpower.
How do you know he doesn't?
A few final questions..
Why did Paul mock those in the body of Christ at Corinth for being of the mind that they would let someone smack them in the face?
Who would you want present with you if someone was trying to torture and rape your family, someone who believes what Wilber believers, or me....? And if you say Wilber, go tell that to your family. ..
