justify war
- Thread starter brother Willi
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Shadowx
New member
Re: justify war
so, my question is.
what is a Christian?
is it not to be Christ like?
A few questions..given your definition of "Christian"
Wilber, who killed king herod in the NT? I mean if we are to be Christ like, then it wouldn't necessarily be a sin to kill a wicked king would it? Or did God the father kill Herod against the teachings of Jesus Christ and thereby became un-Christlike? :chuckle:
Would it be wrong..for someone to take away the sight of a pagan trying to turn another away from faith in Christ? Would that be un-Christlike? Would Jesus condemn that...?
Would you have a problem if I made a whip and ran some heathens out of YOUR house? You know, maybe they are trying to rape your kids or something...
Is Godly Criminal Justice for today?
When a Christian cop guns down a maniac who is shooting up a school yard full of Children..Is Jesus mad at him for not "turning the other cheek"? Is he a criminal or a hero in God's eyes?
so, my question is.
what is a Christian?
is it not to be Christ like?
A few questions..given your definition of "Christian"
Wilber, who killed king herod in the NT? I mean if we are to be Christ like, then it wouldn't necessarily be a sin to kill a wicked king would it? Or did God the father kill Herod against the teachings of Jesus Christ and thereby became un-Christlike? :chuckle:
Would it be wrong..for someone to take away the sight of a pagan trying to turn another away from faith in Christ? Would that be un-Christlike? Would Jesus condemn that...?
Would you have a problem if I made a whip and ran some heathens out of YOUR house? You know, maybe they are trying to rape your kids or something...
Is Godly Criminal Justice for today?
When a Christian cop guns down a maniac who is shooting up a school yard full of Children..Is Jesus mad at him for not "turning the other cheek"? Is he a criminal or a hero in God's eyes?
Love your enemies--unless they are REALLY bad. Then kill them.
The Father makes his sun to shine on the good, and darkness to descend on the evil.
The Father sends rain on the unjust and unrighteous.
There--isn't that easy? Nothing hard about following Jesus. Just act the way Jesus does--the way most people would do.
Really--when you come to think about it--Jesus is no different than you or me. Being a Christian shouldn't be so difficult after all....
The Father makes his sun to shine on the good, and darkness to descend on the evil.
The Father sends rain on the unjust and unrighteous.
There--isn't that easy? Nothing hard about following Jesus. Just act the way Jesus does--the way most people would do.
Really--when you come to think about it--Jesus is no different than you or me. Being a Christian shouldn't be so difficult after all....
Last edited:
Re: justify war
Jesus may not have ordered any to go to war, but He did say this:
So, He told us Himself that He did not come to bring peace. He came to bear the sword. There will be no real peace on earth until He returns to rule it. Revelation talks about the great war that will happen when He returns. From my understanding, that doesn't look like peace there.
There is no God-ruled government on earth at this time. It will come in the future with Christ's return. Until then, I don't think we should expect our government to act as Christ would. These are men. Christ is more than a man. He is our Lord and King.
Jesus may not have ordered any to go to war, but He did say this:
So, He told us Himself that He did not come to bring peace. He came to bear the sword. There will be no real peace on earth until He returns to rule it. Revelation talks about the great war that will happen when He returns. From my understanding, that doesn't look like peace there.
There is no God-ruled government on earth at this time. It will come in the future with Christ's return. Until then, I don't think we should expect our government to act as Christ would. These are men. Christ is more than a man. He is our Lord and King.
SOTK
New member
Matthew 10-34:36
34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35For I have come to "set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law'; 36and "a man's enemies will be those of his own household.'[5]
I'm not stating that Jesus preaches violence, BW, but he certainly isn't all about "Peace" either! Some Christians and even non-believers are too quick to point out that Jesus is about love. Well, he is, but Jesus and the Father have shown themselves to be wrathful as well. They can be angered and can deliver righteous judgement.
Jesus isn't here yet, BW. We are living on a planet occupied by evil...Satan! Evil is alive and well! Sure, we are to love one another and to become as Christ-like as possible, but loving one another is pretty hard when we are surrounded by evil. There is a WAR going on right now, BW. WHich side are you on? I am on God's side myself, and, yes, I believe that can mean killing evil if so led.
We are to witness are we not? To spread the good news, correct? If I let an evil person kill me, that can mean that people that I may have been supposed to witness too can't receive the message. Or you can look at it another way. My willingness to die could allow other victims to die having not received the good news yet. That's even worse! It's permanent!
No, BW, Peace will only happen when Jesus is actually here. Until then, evil remains and is in full force! Love will only truly exist when Jesus returns to reign. In the mean time, we love as much as we can and fight when confronted with evil!
SOTK
Christine
New member
Brother Willie, I've saw every scriptural reference you gave, and all or almost all were from the book of Matthew or another one of the Gospels. In many of the scriptures you gave, Jesus is telling the saved Jews how the world will be during Christ's millennial reign on earth.
If you accept all of scripture as being devinely inspired, and if Jesus was devine, then His words contradicted what His inspired word says elsewhere in scripture. God commanded King David to go to war. God commanded Israel to fight the enemies that were living in their land to get their land back. So, BW, when you are quoting the words of Jesus, you need to keep them in their context and see if they even apply to us today.
If you accept all of scripture as being devinely inspired, and if Jesus was devine, then His words contradicted what His inspired word says elsewhere in scripture. God commanded King David to go to war. God commanded Israel to fight the enemies that were living in their land to get their land back. So, BW, when you are quoting the words of Jesus, you need to keep them in their context and see if they even apply to us today.
brother Willi
New member
Matthew 10-34:36
34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35For I have come to "set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law'; 36and "a man's enemies will be those of his own household.'[5]
to understand this, you need to pretend you are from that time. in that place.
be part of that jewwish family and bring home news of a messiah
34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35For I have come to "set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law'; 36and "a man's enemies will be those of his own household.'[5]
to understand this, you need to pretend you are from that time. in that place.
be part of that jewwish family and bring home news of a messiah
brother Willi
New member
can you show me this?
brother Willi
New member
yes they can
we can not
brother Willi
New member
am i wheat?
am i tares?
tell me, then kill me
am i tares?
tell me, then kill me
Chileice
New member
Re: Re: justify war
Re: Re: justify war
Following Jesus is hard. We might get killed for it. I think Brother Willi may be the only one disciple enough to face the truth. Jesus wanted us to trust him. If HE wants to kill someone, that's up to him and he can rot the king's guts out without my help. But if I try to save my life I lose it. If I lose it for His sake and the gospel's, I gain it. It's not what we like to hear so we make up baloney like the gospels are only for Jews. That negates all of Jesus' teaching. That is a bunch of hog hooey. Jesus' words are just as valid today as the day he spoke them. Maybe we ought to listen!
Re: Re: justify war
Following Jesus is hard. We might get killed for it. I think Brother Willi may be the only one disciple enough to face the truth. Jesus wanted us to trust him. If HE wants to kill someone, that's up to him and he can rot the king's guts out without my help. But if I try to save my life I lose it. If I lose it for His sake and the gospel's, I gain it. It's not what we like to hear so we make up baloney like the gospels are only for Jews. That negates all of Jesus' teaching. That is a bunch of hog hooey. Jesus' words are just as valid today as the day he spoke them. Maybe we ought to listen!
Chileice
New member
Re: Re: justify war
Re: Re: justify war
God killed Herod, or allowed him to die anyway. But look what happened first:
Luke 13
30And indeed there are last who will be first, and there are first who will be last."
31On that very day[1] some Pharisees came, saying to Him, "Get out and depart from here, for Herod wants to kill You."
32And He said to them, "Go, tell that fox, "Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.'
LUKE 23.11,12
Then Herod, with his men of war, treated Him with contempt and mocked Him, arrayed Him in a gorgeous robe, and sent Him back to Pilate. That very day Pilate and Herod became friends with each other, for previously they had been at enmity with each other.
God let this man kill a bunch of folks and even condemn Christ to death WITHOUT killing him. What if someone HAD killed him? Would that have been God's will? Might not another king have let Jesus off the hook? I think killing a leader because we get the whim to do so is wrong. I fully believe that with prayer, instead of guns, Sadaam Hussein could have dropped dead of a heart attack, eaten rotten meat or whatever and died if that were God's plan. Maybe God wanted to kill Sadaam but instead he is alive to serve as some sort of inspiration to those who followed him. So, yes, I think it would be a sin for me to kill any leader: Castro or Blair or the leader of N. Korea. It is still a sin.
I guarantee that cop doesn't want to pull the trigger. If he does he is a bad cop. But, in the line of duty he has to do it sometimes. But he is the rightfully selected arm of the authorities we are to obey and he is acting to stop abherrent criminal behaviour. Should that same cop go into a neighbourhood where drugs are being sold and kill all of the 15-20 year lod boys because they are the ones most likely to use drugs?! Of course not, but that is the kind of mentality it takes to drop into other countries and kill "suspected terrorists" without any evidence or right to trial. That is evil. All of these children who have been killed who couldn't have possibly been terrorists.
I know you all are on Brother Willi's case but I think he is right. You cannot justify war with Jesus' words. Christians suffered and died by the hundreds and thousands in the first three centuries and the Gospel spread like wildfire. After becoming the state religion, decadence spread like wildfire. How does anyone KNOW that God wants the U.S. to remain a superpower. Maybe it is His time to do something else to wake the world up to the fact that Christianity does not belong to America. Praise God that there are Americans who are Christians but when more of them act like Christians, instead of just Americans, this world will see a revival like we haven't experienced in generations.
Re: Re: justify war
Although I hate to dissect Crow's POTD, I think a further examination is in order.
God killed Herod, or allowed him to die anyway. But look what happened first:
Luke 13
30And indeed there are last who will be first, and there are first who will be last."
31On that very day[1] some Pharisees came, saying to Him, "Get out and depart from here, for Herod wants to kill You."
32And He said to them, "Go, tell that fox, "Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.'
LUKE 23.11,12
Then Herod, with his men of war, treated Him with contempt and mocked Him, arrayed Him in a gorgeous robe, and sent Him back to Pilate. That very day Pilate and Herod became friends with each other, for previously they had been at enmity with each other.
God let this man kill a bunch of folks and even condemn Christ to death WITHOUT killing him. What if someone HAD killed him? Would that have been God's will? Might not another king have let Jesus off the hook? I think killing a leader because we get the whim to do so is wrong. I fully believe that with prayer, instead of guns, Sadaam Hussein could have dropped dead of a heart attack, eaten rotten meat or whatever and died if that were God's plan. Maybe God wanted to kill Sadaam but instead he is alive to serve as some sort of inspiration to those who followed him. So, yes, I think it would be a sin for me to kill any leader: Castro or Blair or the leader of N. Korea. It is still a sin.
Without the EXPLICIT command of God... YES. It would be a sin. Pagans and others have always tried to turn us from the faith. But the beauty of Christianity, real Christianity is we can stand in the face of persecution, ridicule and abuse because we stand with the Christ who was likewise ridiculed and abused. SATAN himself tried to turn Jesus from His faith. Maybe some pagan peon would be just the challenge we need to grow in our faith... not to put his eyes out.
Actually, I would have a problem with that unless I had invited you over. I do not think Jesus has excluded legitimate self-defence from his ethic. But I think it should be a last resort. And personal self-defense is a FAR different matter than nations taking up arms against nations... especially in some kind of pre-emptory war. That is what Vietnam was sold to us as. It was the was to keep America safe, because if Vietnam fell we were going to be fighting the commies on our soil. Well we lost some 50,000 fine young men, lost Vietnam and the commies never arrived on our doorstep. Premptory violence just breed contempt and more violence.
Criminal justice, yes. Warfare, NO.
I guarantee that cop doesn't want to pull the trigger. If he does he is a bad cop. But, in the line of duty he has to do it sometimes. But he is the rightfully selected arm of the authorities we are to obey and he is acting to stop abherrent criminal behaviour. Should that same cop go into a neighbourhood where drugs are being sold and kill all of the 15-20 year lod boys because they are the ones most likely to use drugs?! Of course not, but that is the kind of mentality it takes to drop into other countries and kill "suspected terrorists" without any evidence or right to trial. That is evil. All of these children who have been killed who couldn't have possibly been terrorists.
I know you all are on Brother Willi's case but I think he is right. You cannot justify war with Jesus' words. Christians suffered and died by the hundreds and thousands in the first three centuries and the Gospel spread like wildfire. After becoming the state religion, decadence spread like wildfire. How does anyone KNOW that God wants the U.S. to remain a superpower. Maybe it is His time to do something else to wake the world up to the fact that Christianity does not belong to America. Praise God that there are Americans who are Christians but when more of them act like Christians, instead of just Americans, this world will see a revival like we haven't experienced in generations.
Shadowx
New member
"Following Jesus is hard. We might get killed for it. I think Brother Willi may be the only one disciple enough to face the truth. Jesus wanted us to trust him. If HE wants to kill someone, that's up to him and he can rot the king's guts out without my help. But if I try to save my life I lose it. If I lose it for His sake and the gospel's, I gain it. It's not what we like to hear so we make up baloney like the gospels are only for Jews. That negates all of Jesus' teaching. That is a bunch of hog hooey. Jesus' words are just as valid today as the day he spoke them. Maybe we ought to listen!"
You said:
"Following Jesus is hard. We might get killed for it."
Would you also agree we might have to blind people for it?
Like say...Paul...who blinded a man, because he was seeking to turn someone from the faith. Would it be an act of unfaithfulness to the Lord if a Christian cop had to kill a criminal? (see scenario in my first post) Or would you quote to Him, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"? Or in this case bullet..
You said:
I" think Brother Willi may be the only one disciple enough to face the truth."
Yes, provided he confines God to a few verses..and puts words into Jesus' mouth like, "Love your enemy" Wilber's addition- WHILE he is raping your family.
"If he is hungry feed him, if he is thirsty give him drink" Wilber's addition-"WHILE he is raping your 5 yearold daughter.." So I guess you and he would condemn Paul for blinding God's enemy...I don't recall Paul giving him any thing to eat or drink at that moment..
You said:
"Jesus wanted us to trust him."
Protecting ones family, or going off to war to destroy a wicked genocidal regime. (or taking away someone's eyesight as Paul did) isn't the absence of faith, it can be the presence of it. Was Paul being unfaithful and un-Christlike when he blinded a man?
You said:
"If HE wants to kill someone, that's up to him and he can rot the king's guts out without my help."
Would you help him if he asked you to? Didn't Jesus say "Follow me" "It's enough for the student to be like his teacher?" So again..if we go and kill a wicked genocidal king.., why would you and Wilber condemn us? Didn't Wilber say we need to be "Christ like"??? Then you and he need to be consistant..
Do you support Jesus killing king Herod? Do you condemn the saints in Revelations pleading with God to kill their enemies?
You said:
"Jesus' words are just as valid today as the day he spoke them."
So then you agree with Jesus saying "It's enough for the student to be like his master"?
Would you agree that Jesus spoke through Paul?
Paul mocked the Christians at Corinth for being of the mind you and Wilber are of. That they would even let people smack them in the face..
2co 11:19 For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.
2co 11:20 For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.
So here we have Paul mocking the very thing Jesus who was preaching the "Gospel of the kingdom" told HIS disciples they should do..."Turn the other cheek." It would seem you and Wilber believe this is for all people, at all times, under EVERY SITUATION..(Paul did not) Nor do the saints in Revelation who are praying to God to kill their enemies..
Now..I don't have any problems reconciling Paul mocking believers for being of the, "turn the other cheek mentality" in my Christian theology, but how do you and Wilber..?
"we make up baloney like the gospels are only for Jews. That negates all of Jesus' teaching. That is a bunch of hog hooey. *Jesus' words are just as valid today as the day he spoke them.* Maybe we ought to listen!"
Yeah..except for the ones where he supports violence...
And I guess if you mean to say ALL his teachings are for us today, then you need to be circumcised and keep *all* the law of mosses.
You said:
"Following Jesus is hard. We might get killed for it."
Would you also agree we might have to blind people for it?
Like say...Paul...who blinded a man, because he was seeking to turn someone from the faith. Would it be an act of unfaithfulness to the Lord if a Christian cop had to kill a criminal? (see scenario in my first post) Or would you quote to Him, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"? Or in this case bullet..
You said:
I" think Brother Willi may be the only one disciple enough to face the truth."
Yes, provided he confines God to a few verses..and puts words into Jesus' mouth like, "Love your enemy" Wilber's addition- WHILE he is raping your family.
"If he is hungry feed him, if he is thirsty give him drink" Wilber's addition-"WHILE he is raping your 5 yearold daughter.." So I guess you and he would condemn Paul for blinding God's enemy...I don't recall Paul giving him any thing to eat or drink at that moment..
You said:
"Jesus wanted us to trust him."
Protecting ones family, or going off to war to destroy a wicked genocidal regime. (or taking away someone's eyesight as Paul did) isn't the absence of faith, it can be the presence of it. Was Paul being unfaithful and un-Christlike when he blinded a man?
You said:
"If HE wants to kill someone, that's up to him and he can rot the king's guts out without my help."
Would you help him if he asked you to? Didn't Jesus say "Follow me" "It's enough for the student to be like his teacher?" So again..if we go and kill a wicked genocidal king.., why would you and Wilber condemn us? Didn't Wilber say we need to be "Christ like"??? Then you and he need to be consistant..
Do you support Jesus killing king Herod? Do you condemn the saints in Revelations pleading with God to kill their enemies?
You said:
"Jesus' words are just as valid today as the day he spoke them."
So then you agree with Jesus saying "It's enough for the student to be like his master"?
Would you agree that Jesus spoke through Paul?
Paul mocked the Christians at Corinth for being of the mind you and Wilber are of. That they would even let people smack them in the face..
2co 11:19 For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.
2co 11:20 For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.
So here we have Paul mocking the very thing Jesus who was preaching the "Gospel of the kingdom" told HIS disciples they should do..."Turn the other cheek." It would seem you and Wilber believe this is for all people, at all times, under EVERY SITUATION..(Paul did not) Nor do the saints in Revelation who are praying to God to kill their enemies..
Now..I don't have any problems reconciling Paul mocking believers for being of the, "turn the other cheek mentality" in my Christian theology, but how do you and Wilber..?
"we make up baloney like the gospels are only for Jews. That negates all of Jesus' teaching. That is a bunch of hog hooey. *Jesus' words are just as valid today as the day he spoke them.* Maybe we ought to listen!"
Yeah..except for the ones where he supports violence...
And I guess if you mean to say ALL his teachings are for us today, then you need to be circumcised and keep *all* the law of mosses.
Shadowx
New member
Chileice...
I just read your "disecting my post"..
I responded to your first post to me before I read it. How about holding up with any more..I will resubmit my last post with additional comments to your new stuff either tonight or tommorrow. Then you can comment on it all.
Ok?
I just read your "disecting my post"..
I responded to your first post to me before I read it. How about holding up with any more..I will resubmit my last post with additional comments to your new stuff either tonight or tommorrow. Then you can comment on it all.
Ok?
If you do that with one scripture, you must do it with all of it, bro Willi. Either it all applies to everyone or none of it applies to anyone anymore.
brother Willi
New member
Re: Re: justify war
Re: Re: justify war
YEP, he sure did.
tell me, what did he mean by "But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."
how could one deny him?
by not taking his message as important maybe?
whjat is the message?
then Jesus said"34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law."
to understand this, just look at this thread.
but to reallty experience it.
go back in time.
bring home this message of a Messiah.
remember, the high priest wants you to yell Barrabas
so does your family.
now is the time that the wheat and tares grow together
Re: Re: justify war
YEP, he sure did.
tell me, what did he mean by "But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."
how could one deny him?
by not taking his message as important maybe?
whjat is the message?
then Jesus said"34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law."
to understand this, just look at this thread.
but to reallty experience it.
go back in time.
bring home this message of a Messiah.
remember, the high priest wants you to yell Barrabas
so does your family.
now is not Revelation .
now is the time that the wheat and tares grow together
remember how the abortion issue got Gearge elected?
brother Willi
New member
ok, sorry, i didnt see this.
see my last post please.
brother Willi
New member
absolutly "Render to Caesar"
give him all you wish.
he is not my God.
i render to God ALL that is God's.