Justification of Eternal Punishment

[Timotheos]

There ya go tippytoeing...slithering

"go to their second death" they go into eternal punishment.

If the first death was not annihilation why should you say the second death is?

Hi Totten, no tippytoeing, no slithering. I'm going to post a passage of scripture with two words taken out of it. I would like you to look at the scripture and fill in the blanks. Would you do that please?

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to ___________, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto __________, and few there be that find it.

Okay, please fill in the blanks with the missing words. No tippytoeing, no slithering, just the words of Christ.

 

[meshak]

If you teach that which he teaches then you teach a false gospel as well.

Your teaching is out of context with God and Jesus' love.

It is so illogical to say the least.

 

[meshak]

A heavy burden, I'm sure. :AMR:

AMR

Nope, it was very simple, sir

 

[Timotheos]

Frankly, I'm really not that interested in what you and your ilk believe.

My ilk? Do you mean us Christians? Frankly, I'm not surprised.

 

[chrysostom]

A heavy burden, I'm sure. :AMR:

AMR

amr wants you to suffer

you deserve it

 

[way 2 go]

Still missing it,

not missing anything

'Smoke of their torment',...ever hear of a metaphor? 'figurative speech'. But lets take this further.....what is the 'smoke' of their 'torment' anyways? Have you heard of the term 'smoke of their torment' anywhere else but in this peculiar passage? figure of speech,...and don't forget...the NT was not written in English,...look to the original greek inflections, meanings, context, etc. Just like 'fire' is figurative, so is 'smoke'.

now we are in the Matrix and there is no smoke

BTW you did not answer:
if they are not there then it is not the the smoke of their torment

The issue of 'aion' has already been explained....it does not in and of itself indicate 'eternal' or 'endless' unless qualified by/referring to a particular subject such as 'God' himself, in which case...'eternal', 'endless' has special significance. Otherwise, it indicates an 'age' (indefinite period of time, a dispensation).

no eternal life, you are wrong again

Already exposed Matt. 25:46 Again the word for 'punishment' is a 'cutting off' as in 'pruning' a branch or tree, so that it may procude a better harvest. Otherwise, its 'chastisement', and such is not 'endless'. - such endures til its end result is effected. In this case it could be towards rehabilitation/purification/reform....or 'death'. - NOT an endless torture. If anything a 'transformation' occurs in the fire of 'God'.

no

Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment
if they are not there it can't be punishment

 

[freelight]

amr wants you to suffer

you deserve it

Interestingly, no one is 'earning' anything in that system,..since its all auto-rigged by 'God' already. Its a 'closed-system' apparently.

I imagine Infinite LOVE has a better program in store, with the 'perks' of 'free will' included.

 

[freelight]

Telling it as it as...............

Telling it as it as...............

not missing anything

Through lack of study I'd say so -

Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment (there are quite a few)

now we are in the Matrix and there is no smoke

My former commentary holds,...its figurative language.

BTW you did not answer:
if they are not there then it is not the the smoke of their torment

Figurative speech. Also, 'aion' refers to an age (indefinite period of time)...and the better translation of that passage is -


Young's Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898

1. And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.

2. and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night-to the ages of the ages.

>note,...its not the English sense of 'forever and ever', but 'eons of the eons'...which does not connote 'eternity' or a sense of 'never-ending', but since they derivative of 'aion',...they are a period of time, a dispensation,..these 'eons' have beginnings and endings.

no eternal life, you are wrong again

Learn what 'aion' means......

I'd apply some Vulcan logic to the issue at hand....so I welcome the visual.

Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment
if they are not there it can't be punishment

Already dealt with here & here. - researching commentary and links is for your own enlightenment. Now whether you decide to do that, is your choice.

Again, any sane person will reject ECT on principle alone, besides the other language/translation issues which render it erroneous. Remember,...the word 'kolasin' (translated by some as 'punishment') also refers to 'cutting or lopping off', as in 'pruning' a tree so that it will flourish and be fruitful',....which points to a corrective/restorative action, NOT an endless state of torture. All chastisments from love is always corrective, tending towards the good, rehabilitation, restoration of the one suffering. Consider the nature of love itself. stay there, until it dawns.

All this business about a 'god' of eternal punishment is non-sense, let alone a blight on God's very character and goodness.

 

[way 2 go]

Isa 14:9 The place of death is excited that you are coming. Sheol is waking the spirits of all the leaders of the earth for you. Sheol is making the kings stand up from their thrones to meet you.
Isa 14:10 They will make fun of you, saying, "Now you are as dead as we are. Now you are just like us."

 

[way 2 go]

Learn what 'aion' means......

1Ti 6:17 As for the rich in this present age = aiōn -properly an age


Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." = aiōnios -eternal, for ever, everlasting,

 

[freelight]

All adjectival forms of 'aion' refer to an 'age' unless properly qualified......

All adjectival forms of 'aion' refer to an 'age' unless properly qualified......

1Ti 6:17 As for the rich in this present age = aiōn -properly an age


Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." = aiōnios -eternal, for ever, everlasting,

okay,...looks like we need some more schooling........


Proper exegesis on Matt. 25:46 Here.

All adjectival forms of 'aion' pertain to an 'age' (a period of duration of time), it does NOT mean 'eternal', 'everlasting' or 'endless' unless the adjective is describing something of 'eternity' or of 'God' who by nature is 'eternal', 'everlasting', 'endless', 'infinite', etc. You're believing false and misleading English translations (and imposed traditions of men) of 'aion' and its adjectival forms. They all pertain to an 'age',......'ages' have beginning and endings, they are dispensational periods....one 'eon' is replaced by or followed by other 'eons' in the stretch of eternity. You cannot get 'eternal' or 'infinite' from the word 'aion', impossible. You've got some more study to do oly: - you are without exuse since the scholarly info. has been provided as evidence.

Oh, and don't forget,....even apart from these strong grammatical supports against ECT, we have the tacit immorality, injustice and insanity of 'eternal punishment' on principle alone. That's enough to reject the doctrine. Now there's much more involved here than just assuming the English words 'eternal' or 'everlasting' can be translated as equivalents of the greek word 'aion' and its derivatives, because they are NOT. In my studies, I'm ready to be proven wrong or receive better information to have the best representation of 'truth', since this is the ideal of a real truth seeker. So far, ECT (eternal conscious torment) in hell, fails on many levels, and its a dismal representation of God's management, to say nothing of his infinite love and mercy.

Eternal Torment is a doctrine of demons

Eternal Torment and Matt. 25:46

Does Revelation 20:10, 14:11, and Mark 9:44 Teach Eternal Torment?

 

[ok doser]

This concept was a great way for the Catholic church to market the sale of dispensations.

I'd buy one :idunno:

 

[MichaelCadry]

Not true, since the greek word 'aionion' refers to an 'age', an indefinite period/season of time....being mistranslated as 'everlasting' ......and 'kolasin' translated by some as 'punishment' means "to prune a tree to make it more fruitful" ( a cutting or lopping off) - the sense here is a 'corrective period' or 'chastisement'. The so called 'punishment' is only for a period of time until its intended effect is fulfilled. For proof see the articles below if you really want to know the correct translation of the words -

>"Eternal" Punishment (Matthew 25:46) Is NOT Found In The Greek New Testament

>If Everlasting Punishment is not Eternal then how can Life be Eternal? (Matthew 25:46)

:thumb:

But why, freelight, does it say in the Bible: forever? Are we supposed to look the other way or believe you? I've listened to your first video and don't agree with it. I'm not going to listen to two more. It says that Satan shall be thrown into the lake of fire and burn forever. Same with the beast and the false prophet. It doesn't say that many will go to hell or the lake of fire. You have to be heinous to go to the Lake of Fire. Hell is not forever. The Bible clearly states that those in Hell shall be delivered up to be judged also. I would think that most will be forgiven. For man's sins to date are worse now than thousands of years ago. We know much and still we choose sin terrible sins. See Rev. 20:13KJV. So people have plenty of time to make a relationship with God and Jesus, and the Holy Ghost, make a change. Most people or souls shall NOT go to Hell, and then the lake of fire according to the Book of Life, and according to their works. Works include helping to feed the poor, or helping to donate clothes so that the homeless and poor will have things to wear, or buying a fast food meal to give to a beggar. These are the types of 'works' that the Lord has in mind. Anyway, I digress. Nevertheless, those who take advantage of this fact are prime candidates to be sorry about that. Good luck with your 'Religion and Hinduism!!" I don't care how many good rep. stars you have. That won't get you into Heaven. Jesus said to take up your cross and follow Him. Have you done that?

May God Teach You More!

Michael

 

[Vaquero45]

rev 14:11 :idunno:


still got that man-crush on Hilston, eh vac? :chuckle:

So, you still suck at life and theology. No surprise. Pathetic response, begging to weasel away from the topic like you always do when challenged.

I actually forgot about this and saw it in my user CP, then wondered what kind of stupidity you had came up with. It was weak as expected, but, that's you.

Bite me, v45

 

[musterion]

I'd buy one :idunno:

We already have one. We dont need another.

 

[ok doser]

So, you still suck at life and theology. No surprise. Pathetic response, begging to weasel away from the topic like you always do when challenged.

no vac - it was a succinct response to your question

if you don't understand why, let me know and i'll draw it for you with crayons or act it out with finger puppets

We already have one. We dont need another.

...

 

[aikido7]

Satan's pain is that he is hidden from God. And our pain, too.

THAT'S eternal punishment.

 

[Vaquero45]

no vac - it was a succinct response to your question

if you don't understand why, let me know and i'll draw it for you with crayons or act it out with finger puppets

I asked you to offer a link to where on TOL you had "done it in the past". Where have you ever offered any respectable answer on the topic? I'll make it easy for you...

You have never done it.

All you have done is mock and thread-crap.

The verse you threw against the wall has been covered, but you are either too ego driven to admit it, or just too stupid to realize the fact.

Crayons and finger puppets are the arena you can thrive in, you should stick to them and let the adults talk about the complicated stuff.

 

[ok doser]

I asked you to offer a link to where on TOL you had "done it in the past". Where have you ever offered any respectable answer on the topic? I'll make it easy for you...

You have never done it.

you've been here what? Eleven years and you still haven't figured out the search function? :chuckle:

here doofus - my first post on this thread:

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4440157&postcount=761

now unbunch your panties and go back to sucking your thumb you feeble simpleton :wave2:

 

[Nick M]

Why is that crimes comitted against higher authorities (e.g. police officer, president) should be deserving of harsher penalties or punishments?

Separation from God is the punishment for all because of what Adam did. Most on TOL choose it. I realize you made a drive by post, but this needed to be answered anyway.