Justification of Eternal Punishment

[freelight]

But why, freelight, does it say in the Bible: forever? Are we supposed to look the other way or believe you? I've listened to your first video and don't agree with it. I'm not going to listen to two more. It says that Satan shall be thrown into the lake of fire and burn forever. Same with the beast and the false prophet. It doesn't say that many will go to hell or the lake of fire. You have to be heinous to go to the Lake of Fire. Hell is not forever. The Bible clearly states that those in Hell shall be delivered up to be judged also. I would think that most will be forgiven. For man's sins to date are worse now than thousands of years ago. We know much and still we choose sin terrible sins. See Rev. 20:13KJV. So people have plenty of time to make a relationship with God and Jesus, and the Holy Ghost, make a change. Most people or souls shall NOT go to Hell, and then the lake of fire according to the Book of Life, and according to their works. Works include helping to feed the poor, or helping to donate clothes so that the homeless and poor will have things to wear, or buying a fast food meal to give to a beggar. These are the types of 'works' that the Lord has in mind. Anyway, I digress. Nevertheless, those who take advantage of this fact are prime candidates to be sorry about that. Good luck with your 'Religion and Hinduism!!" I don't care how many good rep. stars you have. That won't get you into Heaven. Jesus said to take up your cross and follow Him. Have you done that?

May God Teach You More!

Michael

Hi MC,

My former posts, commentary and resource-sharings stand on this particular subject. There is no justification or logic in the concept of ECT (eternal conscious punishment) as typically assumed by 'tradition' and a 'literal' reading of a few passages of scripture. God who is the apex and epitome of mercy and justice, adjudicates all with love and wisdom, mediating fairly in all cases, especially when it comes to the eternal survival or destruction of souls. Remember, God is love, and nothing can diminish that which is infinite, unless one can by their own freedom of choice choose to reject such love and thereby forfeit their lives by choosing death/destruction.

 

[Aimiel]

The punishment they get in the Lake of Fire for eternity is logical and just. No one will bring a single argument against God's decrees or judgments. No one. Standing in His Presence you understand all Truth. ECT is Truth.

 

[Ben Masada]

The punishment they get in the Lake of Fire for eternity is logical and just. No one will bring a single argument against God's decrees or judgments. No one. Standing in His Presence you understand all Truth. ECT is Truth.

Please Aimiel, would you quote in the Tanach the evidence that the lake of fire as a punishment for eternity was a decree of God? Sorry if I am asking for something, knowing beforehand that you cannot provide.

 

[Ben Masada]

Satan's pain is that he is hidden from God. And our pain, too.

THAT'S eternal punishment.

Satan does not exist but as a concept to illustrate the evil inclination in man. And there is nothing eternal about man except for the sin of suicide when a man for eternity will never have a chance to be forgiven.

 

[Aimiel]

Jesus said that He saw Satan fall. I believe Him.

 

[chrysostom]

I was sorry to see
timotheos give up on tol
and
I hope he will return later
in the mean time
others including me will have to carry his water
those who see the insanity of eternal punishment
need to be heard and counted

 

[freelight]

Continuing education..........

Continuing education..........

I was sorry to see
timotheos give up on tol
and
I hope he will return later
in the mean time
others including me will have to carry his water
those who see the insanity of eternal punishment
need to be heard and counted

Callenging ECT (eternal conscious torment) Here :thumb:

My blog-portal above still holds,..for those interested in my commentaries on this subject. I suspect Timotheous is still among the living

Again,...even apart from religious passages on the subject,...ECT violates the ethic and moral of real justice, to say nothing of the divine mercy of the infinite which rules by love and wisdom. It still stands that sin or iniquity fully embraced bearing its fruit results in death (disintegration), and the 'second death' is not an 'eternal conscious torment' of a living soul in some lake of fire, but a transformation of that soul back to the primal elements or OverSoul of creation (an actual death)...or a transformation effecting the purification/saving of that soul (universalism), not a living soul being tormented to no end (which is insanity).

 

[Zeke]

it's a dead duck, just like any doctrine that comes from the dead letter and the God it portrays, beep hiss fizzle.

 

[freelight]

it's a dead duck, just like any doctrine that comes from the dead letter and the God it portrays, beep hiss fizzle.

And great minds who value reason, logic, truth, fairness, justice will research a thing or claim out, if there be any soundness or sanity in it, and reject it if it bears the contrary.

 

[Aimiel]

That's called, "cherry-picking'." Those who humble themselves in the sight of The Lord will be exalted in due season.

 

[freelight]

Far from cherry picking.....

Far from cherry picking.....

That's called, "cherry-picking'." Those who humble themselves in the sight of The Lord will be exalted in due season.

I make my case challenging ECT in many commentaries already shared and don't think its "cherry-picking" because we're questioning the concept, idea and belief itself, as it relates on different levels of principle, ethic, morality, fairness, justice, mercy, etc.

Upholding a 'God' that is truly just and merciful (all-loving, benevolent, long suffering, gracious) as purposely condemning its own offspring to eternal torment and suffering TO NO END, is senseless and barbaric.

Of course those who humble themselves before the Lord will be exalted,....while the opportunity for repentance and surrender of will is afforded to all sentient beings, since it is God's will that all be saved, and that none perish. God's will and providence upholds all that exists, and governs the conditions and destinies of all souls. The will towards Life undergirds all that exists, so the divine will universally pre-eminently upholds all, UNLESS a soul can choose against the divine will, and ultimately decide for itself its own demise or 'death' (disintegration). It would stand to reason that if a soul can choose life (soul-survival) it can also in that given freedom of choice...choose 'death' as well, hence those undergoing the 'second death'.

Of course "universal salvation/reconciliation" is another option, which highlights the supremacy and triumph of divine Love much more than a program of eternal torment and endless suffering ever could. If you would believe that God's will ultimately triumphs and Love is all-supreme,....ECT falls far below the benchmark of showcasing the efficacy of divine love. Remember Love's will.

 

[Ben Masada]

I was sorry to see timotheos give up on tol and I hope he will return later in the mean time others including me will have to carry his water

those who see the insanity of eternal punishment
need to be heard and counted

And you can say that again as there is nothing eternal about man but death and, there is no punishment in the grave. The opposite is rather true.

 

[Timotheos]

I was sorry to see
timotheos give up on tol
and
I hope he will return later
in the mean time
others including me will have to carry his water
those who see the insanity of eternal punishment
need to be heard and counted

Let's see if people can be decent...

 

[ok doser]

:think:

 

[way 2 go]

the death of the body does not destroy the spirit
the fire of hell will not destroy the spirit either

the physical body is destroyed but not the spirit

Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. But rather fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

like so ...

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet doing signs before it, (by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast), and those who had worshiped his image. The two were thrown alive into the Lake of Fire burning with brimstone.

 

[freelight]

Not quite......

Not quite......

the death of the body does not destroy the spirit
the fire of hell will not destroy the spirit either

the physical body is destroyed but not the spirit

Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. But rather fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

like so ...

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet doing signs before it, (by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast), and those who had worshiped his image. The two were thrown alive into the Lake of Fire burning with brimstone.

I've treated these issues in the previous pages for those interested with proper commentary.

There is no justification for ECT since such violates the principle of God's justice and mercy further repudiating His divine goodness and love. It also ties God into a self-inflicted stalemate since his will is eternally unable to be fulfilled.

 

[way 2 go]

I've treated these issues in the previous pages for those interested with proper commentary.

the non Christian commentary that leads you into ECT

There is no justification for ECT since such violates the principle of God's justice and mercy

your spirit is eternal

further repudiating His divine goodness and love. It also ties God into a self-inflicted stalemate since his will is eternally unable to be fulfilled.

Job_8:20 "Behold, God will not reject a blameless man, nor take the hand of evildoers.

 

[rstrats]

way 2 go,
re: "your spirit is eternal"

How do you know that?

 

[way 2 go]

way 2 go,
re: "your spirit is eternal"

How do you know that?

me ,
I get an immortal body
1Co 15:53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.


the spirit lives on without the body

Isa 14:9 The place of death is excited that you are coming. Sheol is waking the spirits of all the leaders of the earth for you. Sheol is making the kings stand up from their thrones to meet you.
Isa 14:10 They will make fun of you, saying, "Now you are as dead as we are. Now you are just like us."

Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

 

[rstrats]

way 2 go,
re: "Isa 14:9 The place of death is excited that you are coming. Sheol is waking the spirits of all the leaders of the earth for you. Sheol is making the kings stand up from their thrones to meet you."


Verse 8 - "Indeed the cypress trees rejoice over you. And the cedars of Lebanon, saying, 'Since you were cut down, no woodsman has come up against us.'" I think it's safe to say that this isn't literal so what reason do you have for thinking that verse 9 is?

BTW, many of the more literal translations don't have the word "spirits" in them."