Justification of Eternal Punishment

[False Prophet]

The righteous judgment of God who will render to everyone according to what he has done:
5 But you are stubborn and refuse to change, so you are making your own punishment even greater on the day he shows his anger. On that day everyone will see God’s right judgments. 6 God will reward or punish every person for what that person has done. Ro 2
Is God unjust for everlasting punishment?
5 When we do wrong, that shows more clearly that God is right. So can we say that God is wrong to punish us? (I am talking as people might talk.) 6 No! If God could not punish us, he could not judge the world. Ro 3

 

[way 2 go]

The righteous judgment of God who will render to everyone according to what he has done:
5 But you are stubborn and refuse to change, so you are making your own punishment even greater on the day he shows his anger. On that day everyone will see God’s right judgments. 6 God will reward or punish every person for what that person has done. Ro 2
Is God unjust for everlasting punishment?
5 When we do wrong, that shows more clearly that God is right. So can we say that God is wrong to punish us? (I am talking as people might talk.) 6 No! If God could not punish us, he could not judge the world. Ro 3

:thumb: I was listening to a message on these verses on my drive home today



Psa 19:9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.

 

[way 2 go]

way 2 go,
re: "Isa 14:9 The place of death is excited that you are coming. Sheol is waking the spirits of all the leaders of the earth for you. Sheol is making the kings stand up from their thrones to meet you."


Verse 8 - "Indeed the cypress trees rejoice over you. And the cedars of Lebanon, saying, 'Since you were cut down, no woodsman has come up against us.'" I think it's safe to say that this isn't literal so what reason do you have for thinking that verse 9 is?

BTW, many of the more literal translations don't have the word "spirits" in them."

Ecc_3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity into man's heart

 

[Timotheos]

The righteous judgment of God who will render to everyone according to what he has done:
5 But you are stubborn and refuse to change, so you are making your own punishment even greater on the day he shows his anger. On that day everyone will see God’s right judgments. 6 God will reward or punish every person for what that person has done. Ro 2
Is God unjust for everlasting punishment?
5 When we do wrong, that shows more clearly that God is right. So can we say that God is wrong to punish us? (I am talking as people might talk.) 6 No! If God could not punish us, he could not judge the world. Ro 3

That's true.

And according to the Bible, the righteous punishment for sin is death, not eternal torture. Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord".

 

[freelight]

That's true.

And according to the Bible, the righteous punishment for sin is death, not eternal torture. Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord".

Understanding what 'life' and 'death' is is key here. Those following the discussion can see there is no justification for ECT as we've exposed its insanity.

 

[ttruscott]

IF the Spirits created in HIS image are created as eternal, that is, unable to be annihilated, and

IF some sinners became eternally evil by choosing to reject HIS grace and salvation (the only power that could save them) and

IF a little leaven (sin) leavens (corrupts) the whole lump (all of created reality),

THEN to protect the holy nature of the heavenly state of created reality, all the eternally demonically evil must be banished from created reality to keep heaven pure and holy.

NO other situation can account for the GOD who is love and whose love is perfectly patient, using a place like a hellish outer darkness for anyone without falling short of placing a true value on HIS attributes of love, patience and holiness.

 

[way 2 go]

That's true.

And according to the Bible, the righteous punishment for sin is death, not eternal torture. Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord".

Understanding what 'life' and 'death' is is key here. Those following the discussion can see there is no justification for ECT as we've exposed its insanity.

bible says everlasting punishment
Mat_25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.



the physical body is destroyed but not the spirit

Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. But rather fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

like so ...

destroying body and soul but not the eternal spirit
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet doing signs before it, (by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast), and those who had worshiped his image. The two were thrown alive into the Lake of Fire burning with brimstone.

the spirit continuing on in spiritual death
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead in it. And death and hell delivered up the dead in them. And each one of them was judged according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire.

 

[freelight]

Eschatology........

Eschatology........

bible says everlasting punishment
Mat_25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Already addressed that verse and ECT (eternal conscious torment) here, here, here and elsewhere.....on textual criticism grounds, language and philosophically.

We explored the options of soul-death and universal salvation. These options present a less problematic alternative than ECT on certain grounds. What must be observed is the wages of sin is death, not ECT. However a transformation of soul/spirit may also be effected as all men in Christ are made alive, any fire being a purifying agent restoring the soul.

For those interested in exploring the soul-death concept a bit further, the UB covers the process in detail, an excerpt below:

(36.7) 2:3.2 How futile to make puerile appeals to such a God to modify his changeless decrees so that we can avoid the just consequences of the operation of his wise natural laws and righteous spiritual mandates! “Be not deceived; God is not mocked, for whatsoever a man sows that shall he also reap.” True, even in the justice of reaping the harvest of wrongdoing, this divine justice is always tempered with mercy. Infinite wisdom is the eternal arbiter which determines the proportions of justice and mercy which shall be meted out in any given circumstance. The greatest punishment (in reality an inevitable consequence) for wrongdoing and deliberate rebellion against the government of God is loss of existence as an individual subject of that government. The final result of wholehearted sin is annihilation. In the last analysis, such sin-identified individuals have destroyed themselves by becoming wholly unreal through their embrace of iniquity. The factual disappearance of such a creature is, however, always delayed until the ordained order of justice current in that universe has been fully complied with.

(37.2) 2:3.4 When this sentence is finally confirmed, the sin-identified being instantly becomes as though he had not been. There is no resurrection from such a fate; it is everlasting and eternal. The living energy factors of identity are resolved by the transformations of time and the metamorphoses of space into the cosmic potentials whence they once emerged. As for the personality of the iniquitous one, it is deprived of a continuing life vehicle by the creature’s failure to make those choices and final decisions which would have assured eternal life. When the continued embrace of sin by the associated mind culminates in complete self-identification with iniquity, then upon the cessation of life, upon cosmic dissolution, such an isolated personality is absorbed into the oversoul of creation, becoming a part of the evolving experience of the Supreme Being. Never again does it appear as a personality; its identity becomes as though it had never been.

 

[Timotheos]

bible says everlasting punishment
Mat_25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

I agree with that. You know that I agree with that. When the wicked are destroyed, they remain destroyed forever. That is eternal punishment, it lasts forever. BUT the righteous go to life eternal, not the wicked. The wicked do not have eternal life, so they can't be tortured alive forever. They would have to be alive forever in order to be tortured alive forever.

the physical body is destroyed but not the spirit

That is not what the verse says to justify your statement that the body is destroyed but not the spirit.

Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. But rather fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

See? The verse doesn't say "the physical body is destroyed but not the spirit." The verse says "fear the one who can destroy BOTH soul and body in hell (gehenna)". That is just what Freelight and I and many others are telling you. We aren't telling you anything different from what Jesus Christ is saying.

This is the second death.

I know, right? The second death cannot possibly eternal LIFE! If the second death is being eternally tortured alive, then it is not death at all.

 

[bybee]

I agree with that. You know that I agree with that. When the wicked are destroyed, they remain destroyed forever. That is eternal punishment, it lasts forever. BUT the righteous go to life eternal, not the wicked. The wicked do not have eternal life, so they can't be tortured alive forever. They would have to be alive forever in order to be tortured alive forever.


That is not what the verse says to justify your statement that the body is destroyed but not the spirit.


See? The verse doesn't say "the physical body is destroyed but not the spirit." The verse says "fear the one who can destroy BOTH soul and body in hell (gehenna)". That is just what Freelight and I and many others are telling you. We aren't telling you anything different from what Jesus Christ is saying.


I know, right? The second death cannot possibly eternal LIFE! If the second death is being eternally tortured alive, then it is not death at all.

Exactly so.

 

[Timotheos]

IF the Spirits created in HIS image are created as eternal, that is, unable to be annihilated, and

IF some sinners became eternally evil by choosing to reject HIS grace and salvation (the only power that could save them) and

IF a little leaven (sin) leavens (corrupts) the whole lump (all of created reality),

THEN to protect the holy nature of the heavenly state of created reality, all the eternally demonically evil must be banished from created reality to keep heaven pure and holy.

NO other situation can account for the GOD who is love and whose love is perfectly patient, using a place like a hellish outer darkness for anyone without falling short of placing a true value on HIS attributes of love, patience and holiness.

SINCE the wicked will be destroyed, just as the Bible says...

THEN their wickedness will not infect or contaminate God's creation ever more...

BUT IF wickedness remains in some part of God's creation forever, as you claim, in hell, allowed to roam free there forever cursing God...

THEN there will never be a time when wickedness is eradicated...

AND THE RESULT IS that under your scheme, God loses for all eternity...

AND IN THE END, evil reigns forever.


May this never be.

 

[way 2 go]

I agree with that. You know that I agree with that. When the wicked are destroyed, they remain destroyed forever. That is eternal punishment, it lasts forever. BUT the righteous go to life eternal, not the wicked. The wicked do not have eternal life, so they can't be tortured alive forever. They would have to be alive forever in order to be tortured alive forever.

yes the non Christians bodies are destroyed not getting another one like Christians are getting

That is not what the verse says to justify your statement that the body is destroyed but not the spirit.

everybody knows your spirit lives on after the body dies

See? The verse doesn't say "the physical body is destroyed but not the spirit." The verse says "fear the one who can destroy BOTH soul and body in hell (gehenna)". That is just what Freelight and I and many others are telling you. We aren't telling you anything different from what Jesus Christ is saying.

does not say the spirit is destroyed

Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. But rather fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

I know, right? The second death cannot possibly eternal LIFE! If the second death is being eternally tortured alive, then it is not death at all.

it is eternal conscious torment of the unbelievers spirit
Christians were once spiritually dead yet alive
Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins

 

[freelight]

On philosophical grounds alone.....ECT fails

On philosophical grounds alone.....ECT fails

your spirit is eternal

While spirit or consciousness may continue after physical death, you don't have proof that a human person or personality is 'eternal'. However, here we have to understand and define our terms.

Now it should be known that while I engage debate on this from a biblical context....I also draw from other religious schools and traditions as an eclectic, and from a more Spiritualist/Theosophical perspective as well, because I recognize the limits of biblical literature and the benefit and expansion of information and knowledge from other faith traditions and schools. The ancient wisdom or perennial philosophy is universal whose golden thread is at the heart of religious truth and spirit principles.

We would also note that Universalism and 'conditional immorality' have been views held by bible believers from the dawn of the church age, and even today among evangelicals there are those who see scriptural support for 'soul death' and 'universalism'. ECT is a common traditional 'assumption', but problematic on grammatical, logical, ethical and philosophical grounds, as we've already addressed and shared research links on.....showing its insanity. How anyone can think that a God who is Love and Wisdom could decree and enforce an eternal state of conscious punishment and torment upon his creation TO NO END.....is pure insanity. It's illogical to love, and not true to real justice which results in God's will triumphing and all karmic debts being fairly balanced and compensated.

 

[freelight]

Textual evidence........

Textual evidence........

~*~*~

Here is a good review from Dr. Preston Sprinkle, on scriptural support for both ECT and what he calls "terminal punishment" ( what he feels to be a more appropriate term for annihilation or final soul-death).

See all 3 blog posts -

Is Annihilationism an Evangelical option?

Biblical Support for Annihilation

Biblical Arguments for Eternal Conscious Torment

My Terminal Blog on the Terminal Punishment of Hell

Here is a good objective conclusion from a committed conservative evangelical Christian who rightly esteems proper exegesis of the scriptures on this subject and recognizes the textual support for 'terminal punishment'. I think I'll adopt the term to Preston's credit

I'll continue to share other extra-biblical sources about the ill-logic of eternal punishment .

 

[way 2 go]

While spirit or consciousness may continue after physical death, you don't have proof that a human person or personality is 'eternal'. However, here we have to understand and define our terms.

your spirit is eternal

Ecc_3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity into man's heart

everybody knows your spirit lives on after the body dies

 

[Timotheos]

yes the non Christians bodies are destroyed not getting another one like Christians are getting



everybody knows your spirit lives on after the body dies


does not say the spirit is destroyed

Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. But rather fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

it is eternal conscious torment of the unbelievers spirit
Christians were once spiritually dead yet alive
Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins

Philippians 3:19
Their end is destruction.

This doesn't mean that their end is NON destruction.

 

[rstrats]

way 2 go,
re: "Ecc_3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity into man's heart"


The following are a few of the translations that understand your NIV verse a bit differently:

King James Bible
He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

NET Bible
God has made everything fit beautifully in its appropriate time, but he has also placed ignorance in the human heart so that people cannot discover what God has ordained, from the beginning to the end of their lives.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
It is beautiful how God has done everything at the right time. He has put a sense of eternity in people's minds. Yet, mortals still can't grasp what God is doing from the beginning to the end [of time].

JPS Tanakh 1917
He hath made every thing beautiful in its time; also He hath set the world in their heart, yet so that man cannot find out the work that God hath done from the beginning even to the end.

Jubilee Bible 2000
He has made every thing beautiful in his time: even the world he has given over to their will, in such a way that no man can attain to this work that God makes from the beginning to the end.

American King James Version
He has made every thing beautiful in his time: also he has set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God makes from the beginning to the end.

Douay-Rheims Bible
He hath made all things good in their time, and hath delivered the world to their consideration, so that man cannot flnd out the work which God hath made from the beginning to the end.

Darby Bible Translation
He hath made everything beautiful in its time; also he hath set the world in their heart, so that man findeth not out from the beginning to the end the work that God doeth.

English Revised Version
He hath made every thing beautiful in its time: also he hath set the world in their heart, yet so that man cannot find out the work that God hath done from the beginning even to the end.

Webster's Bible Translation
He hath made every thing beautiful in its time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

Young's Literal Translation
The whole He hath made beautiful in its season; also, that knowledge He hath put in their heart without which man findeth not out the work that God hath done from the beginning even unto the end.

NCV
God has given them a desire to know the future. He does everything just right and on time, but people can never completely understand what he is doing.

NIRV
He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also given people a sense of who he is. But they can’t completely understand what God has done from beginning to end.

LEB
He has made everything suitable in its time. He also has put the past in their hearts, yet no one can grasp what God does from the beginning to the end.

ICB
God has also given us a desire to know the future. God certainly does everything at just the right time. But we can never completely understand what he is doing.

GNT
He has set the right time for everything. He has given us a desire to know the future, but never gives us the satisfaction of fully understanding what he does.

EXB
God has ·given them a desire to know the future [L placed eternity/an awareness of time/or ignorance in their hearts]. He ·does everything just right and on time [L makes everything appropriate/beautiful in its time], but people can never ·completely understand what he is doing [L discover/find the work that God does from beginning to end; C humans cannot discern the “right time”].

 

[Timotheos]

everybody knows your spirit lives on after the body dies

Don't sail west Chris, everybody knows the world is flat and you will fall off the edge.

 

[way 2 go]

Philippians 3:19
Their end is destruction.

This doesn't mean that their end is NON destruction.

yes the non Christians bodies are destroyed not getting another one like Christians are getting


Php 3:19 Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things.
Php 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
Php 3:21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

 

[way 2 go]

everybody knows your spirit lives on after the body dies

Don't sail west Chris, everybody knows the world is flat and you will fall off the edge.

calling God a liar good choice

Ecc_3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity in man's heart