Jesus is God

[keypurr]

:thumb: The Memra or Logos which descended in somatikos-bodily form like a dove in Luke 3:22, (and Codex Bezae includes the full statement from Psalm 2:7, "Thou art my son; this day have I begotten thee"). Is there a thread of your own where you discuss your understanding of these things in depth?

Welcome to ToL friend. In the past I had a lot of threads but lately I have not made any.

But let me give you some of my thoughts and if your interested we can use the private messenger or I will start a thread, if I can remember how. At 79 my memory is fading away.

I believe that God created an express IMAGE of himself. This would be a created exact copy of God, who is spirit. This spiritual son, Christ, God used to create everything. This son is the logos in John. This spirit took the form of man by dwelling in God's flesh son, who is the body prepared for Christ in Heb 10:5. The Father was pleased that this son had his fullness, in other words, this son is a created form of God.

I got my thoughs from Heb 1, Col 1 and Phil 2. I wish I could say I can read Hebrew or Greek, I have to depend on the English translations of which I have about thirty.

It is a deep study to see that God indeed copied his being and sent it to us to dwell in his flesh son Jesus.

 

[daqq]

Hello daqq and welcome to TOL
I have discussed the Codex Bezae with you b4. It's version of Luke is a clear example of text doctoring, and once again its idea that God told Jesus "this day I have begotten thee" at His baptism conflicts with its own Matthew and Mark.

Hello RT, good to see you here and thanks for the warm welcome.

Surely there has been some conflation but Matthew does not even say the same thing as Mark and Luke because there is more than one plunge in the immersion process, (at least three in this immersion although for Naaman the leper it was the full seven "dips" or plunges).

What we currently have remaining in the immersion accounts are two entirely different statements: Matthew records, "This is My Son, the Beloved", while Mark and Luke have "Thou art My son, the Beloved". To even begin to understand one must first be willing to acknowledge these two different statements and then begin to ask why they are different. Likewise the same must understand that Yochanan the Immerser is "the Witness".

 

[keypurr]

Daqq I dug up an old thread call "What is the express image of God".
You might find I interesting you start from the opening post.

 

[daqq]

Welcome to ToL friend. In the past I had a lot of threads but lately I have not made any.

But let me give you some of my thoughts and if your interested we can use the private messenger or I will start a thread, if I can remember how. At 79 my memory is fading away.

I believe that God created an express IMAGE of himself. This would be a created exact copy of God, who is spirit. This spiritual son, Christ, God used to create everything. This son is the logos in John. This spirit took the form of man by dwelling in God's flesh son, who is the body prepared for Christ in Heb 10:5. The Father was pleased that this son had his fullness, in other words, this son is a created form of God.

I got my thoughs from Heb 1, Col 1 and Phil 2. I wish I could say I can read Hebrew or Greek, I have to depend on the English translations of which I have about thirty.

It is a deep study to see that God indeed copied his being and sent it to us to dwell in his flesh son Jesus.

Hello keypurr and thank you also for the warm welcome.

We are pretty much in agreement so far but have you ever thought about the fact that testimony is spirit? So when the Father spoke what came forth is His Son. The Son is the Elohim in the beginning but the Father YHWH is the Elohim of the elohim, (God of gods, Deuteronomy 10:17). When therefore the Father speaks what comes forth is indeed an exact express image of Himself. The Son is the Spirit of the Elohim which descended from the heavens INTO the man Yeshua. The Father is the Wonderful Counselor upon his shoulder, the keys to everything, the Princely Power of the Empire, (see Isaiah 9:6 YLT Young's Literal Bible Translation). The Son dwelt IN the man Yeshua while the Father was UPON his shoulder, (the back of the neck like a yoke). The Logos which the man Yeshua spoke is the Son of man, (Testimony is Spirit). That is at least the broader sense of what I have been brought to understand. I guess there is no need to worry about digging up an old thread, as this thread is now on Page 218, so I suppose we are not interrupting anything at this point.

 

[daqq]

Daqq I dug up an old thread call "What is the express image of God".
You might find I interesting you start from the opening post.

Ah, okay, I will go see if I can find it, thank you.

 

[Caino]

You will never see the light if your head is in the ground.

Can you show us the scripture where God said that he was going to create Jesus?

Can you show us the scripture where God actually created Jesus?


No you can't, I'm just using the absurd to illustrate your own absurdity! According to you Jesus just said things about himself that were not true (because you don't want them to be in that they conflict with Paul's atonement doctrine) things invalidated later by elevating second hand characterizations about Jesus in letters etc.

 

[keypurr]

Can you show us the scripture where God said that he was going to create Jesus?



Can you show us the scripture where God actually created Jesus?





No you can't, I'm just using the absurd to illustrate your own absurdity! According to you Jesus just said things about himself that were not true (because you don't want them to be in that they conflict with Paul's atonement doctrine) things invalidated later by elevating second hand characterizations about Jesus in letters etc.

Was Jesus born? Everything born is a creation. You do understand what creation means I hope.

But Jesus was not the son that was with God at the creation, that son is a spirit. That son is the express image of the Father who is the only true God. God is a spirit Caino, so when he tells us he has a son who is his express image he is telling you that he created his express image. Everything comes from the Father. The express image is Christ, a spirit. God was pleased that his express image contained his fullness, in other words, he created a form of God. You can find all this in Hebrews 1, Col 1 and Phil 2. Hebrews 10:5 confirms that Christ needed a body prepared for him, why, because he is a spirit. Jesus is that body, he is the flesh son. But he is not the son that God sent, Christ came down from heaven to dwell in Jesus. Christ acted and spoke through Jesus. Jesus is the human Lamb of God, the sacrifice for mankind. The Christ in him laid the foundation of the Universe. This is how the true spiritual son became flesh. Christ has come to bring light.

If you have the power to think and reason with the words you can find truth. God created a clone of himself and sent it to us to take away the works of Satan. For three years I have been displaying what has been given to me to share. If it causes you pain I can not help that. Jesus Christ is the Lord, made so by his God. He came with power and light. But you will have to en your mind and heart to see it.

 

[keypurr]

Hebrews 1:3

(ASV) who being the effulgence of his glory, and the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

(BBE) Who, being the outshining of his glory, the true image of his substance, supporting all things by the word of his power, having given himself as an offering making clean from sins, took his seat at the right hand of God in heaven;

(CEV) God's Son has all the brightness of God's own glory and is like him in every way. By his own mighty word, he holds the universe together. After the Son had washed away our sins, he sat down at the right side of the glorious God in heaven.

(GNB) He reflects the brightness of God's glory and is the exact likeness of God's own being, sustaining the universe with his powerful word. After achieving forgiveness for the sins of all human beings, he sat down in heaven at the right side of God, the Supreme Power.

(GW) His Son is the reflection of God's glory and the exact likeness of God's being. He holds everything together through his powerful words. After he had cleansed people from their sins, he received the highest position, the one next to the Father in heaven.

(ISV) He is the reflection of God's glory and the exact likeness of his being, and he holds everything together by his powerful word. After he had provided a cleansing from sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Highest Majesty

(KJV) Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

(NASB) And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

(NIV) The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

(NKJV) who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

(NRSV) He is the reflection of God's glory and the exact imprint of God's very being, and he sustains all things by his powerful word. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

God made a copy of himself. Christ is a spirit like his creator.

 

[Caino]

Was Jesus born? Everything born is a creation. You do understand what creation means I hope.

But Jesus was not the son that was with God at the creation, that son is a spirit. That son is the express image of the Father who is the only true God. God is a spirit Caino, so when he tells us he has a son who is his express image he is telling you that he created his express image. Everything comes from the Father. The express image is Christ, a spirit. God was pleased that his express image contained his fullness, in other words, he created a form of God. You can find all this in Hebrews 1, Col 1 and Phil 2. Hebrews 10:5 confirms that Christ needed a body prepared for him, why, because he is a spirit. Jesus is that body, he is the flesh son. But he is not the son that God sent, Christ came down from heaven to dwell in Jesus. Christ acted and spoke through Jesus. Jesus is the human Lamb of God, the sacrifice for mankind. The Christ in him laid the foundation of the Universe. This is how the true spiritual son became flesh. Christ has come to bring light.

If you have the power to think and reason with the words you can find truth. God created a clone of himself and sent it to us to take away the works of Satan. For three years I have been displaying what has been given to me to share. If it causes you pain I can not help that. Jesus Christ is the Lord, made so by his God. He came with power and light. But you will have to en your mind and heart to see it.

Yea, I knew you couldn't show where God actually did it. I was just using your own silly argument back at you. Your religious ego is getting the best of you, don't take yourself so seriously.

…18The Jews then said to Him, "What sign do You show us as your authority for doing these things?" 19Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."​

 

[keypurr]

Yea, I knew you couldn't show where God actually did it. I was just using your own silly argument back at you. Your religious ego is getting the best of you, don't take yourself so seriously.

…18The Jews then said to Him, "What sign do You show us as your authority for doing these things?" 19Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."​

It is hard to show a blind person any thing.

You refuse to see truth, you add to the scriptures and you do not wish to learn.

There is no verse that shows where Jesus raised himself, if there was it would mean that he did not really die. You have no idea how your stand on that would effect the Christian faith. If you were right, it would destroy every thing that Christ died for.

 

[keypurr]

But where did he say he DID?

It is not in the verse you quote, your ASSUMING.

 

[Caino]

It is hard to show a blind person any thing.

You refuse to see truth, you add to the scriptures and you do not wish to learn.

There is no verse that shows where Jesus raised himself, if there was it would mean that he did not really die. You have no idea how your stand on that would effect the Christian faith. If you were right, it would destroy every thing that Christ died for.

The only thing that conflicts is Paul's atonement theory, the "good news" that Jesus preached to the Jews was entirely different, the cross had not happened yet.

You are just being very stubborn in a silly way, Jesus did resurrect a likeness of himself from the dead, it's in the bible, your demand for Jesus to repeat what he said after he resurrected himself is desperate. Jesus didn't need to repeat himself after he returned, he even joked with them.

38And He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39"See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have." 40And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet.…​

Besides, if God raised him up he wasn't a sacrifice, sacrificed things don't return from the dead; it wouldn't be a sacrifice.

 

[Caino]

But where did he say he DID?

It is not in the verse you quote, your ASSUMING.

There is no verse where God created the Son, but its a logical assumption.

You claim God created a copy of himself, yet that isn't in the Bible either. You're kind of hypocritical in the way you argue.

 

[keypurr]

There is no verse where God created the Son, but its a logical assumption.

You claim God created a copy of himself, yet that isn't in the Bible either. You're kind of hypocritical in the way you argue.

Not really. I ask for the verse that shows that Jesus did raise himself. You give nothing to back up your assumption. Jesus raising himself is not logical at all. If he died he was dead, unable to think and act on anything.

I gave you verses that should convince a rational person that God created a copy of himself. You do not wish to see it as it destroys your church traditions. You would have to admit that there is only one God and Jesus has a God.

 

[keypurr]

The only thing that conflicts is Paul's atonement theory, the "good news" that Jesus preached to the Jews was entirely different, the cross had not happened yet.

You are just being very stubborn in a silly way, Jesus did resurrect a likeness of himself from the dead, it's in the bible, your demand for Jesus to repeat what he said after he resurrected himself is desperate. Jesus didn't need to repeat himself after he returned, he even joked with them.

38And He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39"See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have." 40And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet.…​

Besides, if God raised him up he wasn't a sacrifice, sacrificed things don't return from the dead; it wouldn't be a sacrifice.

You have no hope of returning from the dead?
He died, that is the sacrifice. He died. He was the stainless Lamb of God. You do not understand the system at all.

 

[Bright Raven]

Not really. I ask for the verse that shows that Jesus did raise himself. You give nothing to back up your assumption. Jesus raising himself is not logical at all. If he died he was dead, unable to think and act on anything.

I gave you verses that should convince a rational person that God created a copy of himself. You do not wish to see it as it destroys your church traditions. You would have to admit that there is only one God and Jesus has a God.

Check this Keypurr;

https://carm.org/jesus-raise-himself

 

[keypurr]

Check this Keypurr;

https://carm.org/jesus-raise-himself

I checked it out, and I have seen it before.

I completely disagree with Jesus Christ being God or a part of God. Jesus told you that his Father is the only true God, Jesus has the same God we have. Being a created copy of God, the spiritual son was given the fullness of the Father but that does not make him God. God created all through his spiritual son. God raised Jesus Christ from the grave. Christ is a servant priest of his Father, the only power he has is what the Father gives him. He does not even know when he is to return, but the Father does.

BR, I have been trying to find the words to give you the power to overcome the traditions that are preventing you from seeing truth. Christ has a God, he is not part of God. He is a servant son, a creation, a spirit. He is much more than a man who died on the cross.

Jesus did NOT raise himself. He died. There are no thoughts in a dead body. They are not aware of anything. It is nice to believe in fairy tales but they are just fairy tales. Man has distorted the words of God to fit their pagan roots.

 

[Bright Raven]

I checked it out, and I have seen it before.

I completely disagree with Jesus Christ being God or a part of God. Jesus told you that his Father is the only true God, Jesus has the same God we have. Being a created copy of God, the spiritual son was given the fullness of the Father but that does not make him God. God created all through his spiritual son. God raised Jesus Christ from the grave. Christ is a servant priest of his Father, the only power he has is what the Father gives him. He does not even know when he is to return, but the Father does.

BR, I have been trying to find the words to give you the power to overcome the traditions that are preventing you from seeing truth. Christ has a God, he is not part of God. He is a servant son, a creation, a spirit. He is much more than a man who died on the cross.

Jesus did NOT raise himself. He died. There are no thoughts in a dead body. They are not aware of anything. It is nice to believe in fairy tales but they are just fairy tales. Man has distorted the words of God to fit their pagan roots.

He is God. Scripture is very clear that Jesus is eternal. (1 John 1:1-2) So what is your problem? If he were not crucified do you believe he would have died of old age? Just asking

 

[keypurr]

He is God. Scripture is very clear that Jesus is eternal. (1 John 1:1-2) So what is your problem? If he were not crucified do you believe he would have died of old age? Just asking

1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
1Jn 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

How does this show us that Jesus is God?

This is not Jesus. It is the spirit that was in him.
And that is not God either.

 

[Caino]

You have no hope of returning from the dead?
He died, that is the sacrifice. He died. He was the stainless Lamb of God. You do not understand the system at all.

I understand the world wide system (or theory) of sacrificing things, man has a hard time with the truth of receiving and granting forgiveness as God does. So man devised a system and substituting valuable things to manipulate the spirit with. The Jews kept returning to this primitive system. Paul, a Roman citizen would have been very familiar with these Pagan practices.

The human sacrifice message was a much easier, more simplified message to teach, at first the slave class, then the Roman religions found favor with the familiar themes of Paul's message. After the emperor adopted Christianity, the whole of the Roman empire went over.

In all of the compromises and excitement, the original gospel was lost, forgotten. In it's place was "Christ crucified" and "soon to return."

Jesus was very much an eternal, living spiritual creator being in heaven before taking on the flesh, he was alive and well during the 3 days his former body lay dead in the tomb, he returned in the likeness of his flesh (as he said he would) appearing to many believers before retuning to his rightful place on high.