Jesus CANNOT be Jehovah/YHVH God

[God's Truth]

Revelation 7:17
For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; ‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’ ‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’”

Revelation 22:1
[ Eden Restored ] Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb

Revelation 5:13
Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!”

Revelation 7:9
[ The Great Multitude in White Robes ] After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

Revelation 7:10
And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”

Revelation 22:3
No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him.


God the Father came as a man for us. We go through Jesus Christ to be saved---we go through what God did for us.

 

[SonOfCaleb]

Greetings SonOfCaleb, I appreciate your perspective, but there are many scholars such as Rotherham that suggest that the vowel pointings of Adonai or Elohim have been added to YHWH as a prompt for a reader not to pronounce the Divine Name. Jehovah is an English derivation when one set of these vowels is used with the consonants YHWH or YHVH. The fact that these two different versions appear in the Hebrew manuscript is considered adequate proof of this explanation. I suggest that you consider Rotherham’s introduction to his translation.

Adonai and Elohim mean Lord and are clearly titles and not the name of God. The consonants for Yahweh and Jehovah are different. Yahweh being 2 syllables and Jehovah 4 syllables.

Either way the importance is the USE of the divine name and not the semantics around the pronounciation. As Jehovah's Witnesses we use the name Jehovah as this has been the most recognised and widely translated pronounciation and use of the name for hundreds of years. Suggest you also watch the Youtube documentary link i posted too if you're interested.

 

[clefty]

This is a new one to me- blaiming the Jews for perceived problems in Christian theology. Better to take responsibility than to blame everything on the Eternal Scapegoat.

Acts 6:8

“Now Stephen, a man full of God’s grace and power, performed great wonders and signs among the people. 9 Opposition arose, however, from members of the Synagogue of the Freedmen (as it was called)—Jews of Cyrene and Alexandria as well as the provinces of Cilicia and Asia—who began to argue with Stephen. 10 But they could not stand up against the wisdom the Spirit gave him as he spoke.

11 Then they secretly persuaded some men to say, “We have heard Stephen speak blasphemous words against Moses and against God.”

12 So they stirred up the people and the elders and the teachers of the law. They seized Stephen and brought him before the Sanhedrin. 13 They produced false witnesses, who testified, “This fellow never stops speaking against this holy place and against the law. 14 For we have heard him say that this Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and change the customs Moses handed down to us.”

Protecting your moneychanging racket from new family members is that important...better to have them NOT protected by the Torah...NOT learn it is One (USURY PROHIBITIVE,DEBT FORGIVING) Law for jew and goyim alike...better to keep them as goyim/foreigners...

Give them the Idolator Christ and keep the Law for yourselves...

Not my fault you guys don’t play nice even amongst yourselves

Acts 6 In those days when the number of disciples was increasing, the Hellenistic Jews[a] among them complained against the Hebraic Jews because their widows were being overlooked in the daily distribution of food...

Still today...understandable as rackets need protecting...

 

[chair]

... Since Aramaic is the version of Hebrew that Jesus used; the old testament was originally written Aramaic.

False. And rather a strange thing to claim.

 

[clefty]

Adonai and Elohim mean Lord and are clearly titles and not the name of God. The consonants for Yahweh and Jehovah are different. Yahweh being 2 syllables and Jehovah 4 syllables.

Either way the importance is the USE of the divine name

agree...and both Yah and Jehovah have different followers doing differently...now what?

and not the semantics around the pronounciation. As Jehovah's Witnesses we use the name Jehovah as this has been the most recognised and widely translated pronounciation and use of the name for hundreds of years. Suggest you also watch the Youtube documentary link i posted too if you're interested.

Something done out of tradition or cuz it was always done that way is not good enough...or else we would still be walking...or not posting on TOL...lol...

If it is shown that J indeed is Y would you change yours to Yah’s Witness?

 

[SonOfCaleb]

Something done out of tradition or cuz it was always done that way is not good enough...or else we would still be walking...or not posting on TOL...lol...

If it is shown that J indeed is Y would you change yours to Yah’s Witness?

Because its irrelavent. As i've already said the linguistic semantics and pronounciation are not as important as the use of the name which was removed erroenously from the Scriptures as early as the 3rd Century.

Either way as i've already shown via the documentary Jehovah or Yehovah are the correct pronounciations of the divine name. We use Jehovah as thats the mostly commonly known pronounciation of the name in English for Centurys.

 

[Dartman]

You have not disproved what I said.
There is only one King of kings and ruler of all the earth. That is what is said about God the Father and Jesus Christ.

Absolutely correct, it's true of both of them. Jesus the Christ being commanded to rule the earth as King for his God, the Father.

Jesus will hand over the kingdom to the Father because we will be just like God.

Not according to Paul's explanation. Jesus is going to be SUBJECT to the Father, which put all things under Jesus.

NT:5293 hupotasso (hoop-ot-as'-so); from NT:5259 and NT:5021; to subordinate; reflexively, to obey: KJV - be under obedience (obedient), put under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to, unto), be (put) in subjection (to, under), submitself unto.

God the Father came as a man for us.

Not according to Scripture. According to Scripture God the Father GENERATED Jesus, by a miracle, and when Jesus was "about 30 years old, his God anointed Jesus with God's own spirit, and THEN "SENT" Jesus from Nazareth into the "World".

We go through Jesus Christ to be saved---we go through what God did for us.

Agreed.

When all enemies are gone, then we no longer have to have an Interceder. We will be one like God and Jesus Christ, who is God.

In MANY ways, this is true! However, the righteous will be "fellow heirs", they will be "sons and daughters" with Jesus as "the son" over his Father's house. And, Jehovah/YHVH God will be their God, and His name shall be in their foreheads.

 

[Dartman]

Revelation 7:17
For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; ‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’ ‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’”

Sometimes Jesus sits, with his God, on his God's throne;

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

And, sometimes Jehovah ALONE is on His throne, and Jesus is "in the midst


Rev 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of Him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.


Rev 5:6-7 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. 7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of Him that sat upon the throne.


Jesus stands in the middle of the throne and of the four beasts and in the middle of the elders ... and then he CAME, and took the book out of the right hand of "Him that sat upont the throne".

Jesus wasn't on the throne at that moment, he was among the elders, and he MOVED so that he could take the book from his God's hand.

Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Here, again, John mentions BOTH our God on the throne, and the Lamb which shares God's throne.


Revelation 22:1
[ Eden Restored ] Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb

Revelation 5:13
Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!”

Revelation 7:9
[ The Great Multitude in White Robes ] After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

Revelation 7:10
And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”

Revelation 22:3
No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him.

 

[clefty]

Because its irrelavent.

you might think so...but jots and tittles matter...the 3rd commandment seems to think it matters...the temple built for it seems to say it matters...the book of life my name is in is authored by this Name...matters to me...

I mean covenants are legal documents...try and falsify names on those...

It mattered enough to remove...and then falsify...

we cant bank online or research anything or watch silly videos of people falling or in accidents without the use of proper proper names and case sensitive passwords...and you wish to say our Father’s Name matters less?

Trillion dollar industry to protect copyright infringements licensing laws and intellectual properties and here you think your afterlife can be trusted to whoever no matter the name...

We struggle to pronounce international footballer’s names as a sign of respect to his culture and history...

Being PC is all the rage right now...so “don’t be racist or anti semitic” is the CARDINAL LAW and yet we worship in a name given to us by Rome its Western Civ...Ha

So what that He was jewish kept jewish customs delivered by Moses...and that He didn’t change any of it...but ROME DID

the struggle is real bro...lol

So ok fine it doesnt matter to you but please don’t expect me to accept it doesnt matter to others or in history or theology...

As i've already said the linguistic semantics and pronounciation are not as important as the use of the name which was removed erroenously from the Scriptures as early as the 3rd Century.

doesnt matter or is not as important to you maybe...despite you yourself accept that it was erroneously done...

So...Don’t shirk the fight...put on the whole armor of Yah and FIGHT the GOOD FIGHT...ha for His Name’s sake...is the GOSPEL...not another...of another “christ”...

See? Suddenly being persecuted for His Name is a real thing...pharisees attacked the disciples for using His Name...not for demonstrating His character...

Either way as i've already shown via the documentary Jehovah or Yehovah are the correct pronounciations of the divine name. We use Jehovah as thats the mostly commonly known pronounciation of the name in English for Centurys.

not good enough...for me...but suit Jourself...LOL

 

[God's Truth]

Absolutely correct, it's true of both of them. Jesus the Christ being commanded to rule the earth as King for his God, the Father.

Not according to Paul's explanation. Jesus is going to be SUBJECT to the Father, which put all things under Jesus.

Jesus is God an came as man to serve. That is what God did for us.

NT:5293 hupotasso (hoop-ot-as'-so); from NT:5259 and NT:5021; to subordinate; reflexively, to obey: KJV - be under obedience (obedient), put under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to, unto), be (put) in subjection (to, under), submitself unto.


Not according to Scripture. According to Scripture God the Father GENERATED Jesus, by a miracle, and when Jesus was "about 30 years old, his God anointed Jesus with God's own spirit, and THEN "SENT" Jesus from Nazareth into the "World".
Agreed.

Jesus is God come as a man; and, all humans have their own spirit within them; that spirit Jesus was conceived with is the Spirit of God come as a man's.

So Jesus was God come from heaven, come as a man to earth; and then was not anointed with the Spirit and power until he was baptized and ready to start his earthly ministry.

In MANY ways, this is true! However, the righteous will be "fellow heirs", they will be "sons and daughters" with Jesus as "the son" over his Father's house. And, Jehovah/YHVH God will be their God, and His name shall be in their foreheads.

I am glad you agree.

 

[God's Truth]

Sometimes Jesus sits, with his God, on his God's throne;

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

And, sometimes Jehovah ALONE is on His throne, and Jesus is "in the midst


Rev 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of Him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.


Rev 5:6-7 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. 7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of Him that sat upon the throne.


Jesus stands in the middle of the throne and of the four beasts and in the middle of the elders ... and then he CAME, and took the book out of the right hand of "Him that sat upont the throne".

Jesus wasn't on the throne at that moment, he was among the elders, and he MOVED so that he could take the book from his God's hand.

Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Here, again, John mentions BOTH our God on the throne, and the Lamb which shares God's throne.


Revelation 22:1
[ Eden Restored ] Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb

Revelation 5:13
Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!”

Revelation 7:9
[ The Great Multitude in White Robes ] After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

Revelation 7:10
And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”

Revelation 22:3
No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him.

The Father's throne is Jesus' throne. It is the same throne.

 

[Dartman]

Jesus is God an came as man to serve. That is what God did for us.

Jesus is God come as a man; and, all humans have their own spirit within them; that spirit Jesus was conceived with is the Spirit of God come as a man's.

So Jesus was God come from heaven, come as a man to earth

Your theory utterly fails these tests;
Acts 17:11 .... they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.


1 Cor 15:1-2 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.


2 Cor 11:4 .... or if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached ..

.... and then was not anointed with the Spirit and power until he was baptized and ready to start his earthly ministry.

Agreed! Jesus did NOT have his God's spirit, UNTIL his God ANOINTED him with the Spirit.

 

[Dartman]

The Father's throne is Jesus' throne. It is the same throne.

Not according to Scripture.
Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne

 

[God's Truth]

Not according to Scripture.
Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne

It is the same throne.

 

[oatmeal]

Jesus is on God's throne, and Jesus has the name above all names. So you still don't want to call him 'God' and honor him as God?

Where is Jesus seated right now?

One book that is clear about it is Hebrews

Hebrews 1:3

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Hebrews 1:13

But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Hebrews 8:1

Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

Hebrews 10:12

But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Hebrews 12:2

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Ephesians 1:20
Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Why not believe what God's word says?

He is not seated in the throne of God but on the right hand of the throne of God.

Where are the believers in this age of grace seated right now?

Ephesians 2:6

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Yes, indeed, Jesus has a name above all names

Philippians 2:9

Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

God gave him what?

a. a name above all names

b. the name above all names


Did Jesus always have that name?

a. no

b. yes

Who gave Jesus that name?

a. He always had it

b. He gave it to himself

c. God gave him that name

Did Jesus always have that name?

a. Yes, so it was unnecessary for God or himself to give to him

b. He did not have that name beforehand, so God gave it to him at the appropriate time and reason

Quit jumping to such unscriptural conclusions, you make Christianity look stupid

 

[God's Truth]

Your theory utterly fails these tests;
Acts 17:11 .... they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.


1 Cor 15:1-2 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.


2 Cor 11:4 .... or if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached ..

You are just attacking me and not disproving anything that I said.

Agreed! Jesus did NOT have his God's spirit, UNTIL his God ANOINTED him with the Spirit.

JESUS WAS CONCEIVED with the FATHER'S Spirit. ALL humans are given a spirit at conception. Jesus was given the Father's Spirit as a man's spirit.

 

[Dartman]

It is the same throne.

Jehovah/YHVH God is NOT seated on "the throne of his FATHER David"..... for MANY reasons. David is NOT Jehovah's father, and, Jehovah has HIS OWN THRONE. A throne He shared with His son.

Jesus was GIVEN the "throne of his father David"..... because Jesus is a descendant of David. And because Jesus is the SPECIFIC descendant promised to sit on that throne.

Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

 

[Dartman]

You are just attacking me and not disproving anything that I said.

What you said fails the test of Scripture, and the preaching of the apostles. I am not "just attacking you", in fact I am attacking your doctrine. It doesn't match Scripture.

JESUS WAS CONCEIVED with the FATHER'S Spirit.

..... that isn't a quote of Scripture .... The Power of the Highest came upon Mary, and caused MARY to conceive Jesus .... God's spirit didn't "come upon Jesus for another 30 years.

ALL humans are given a spirit at conception.

Again, you aren't using terminology from Scripture, and your statement isn't clear enough to know what you mean. Please, either use the Scriptures ..... or explain more clearly.

Jesus was given the Father's Spirit

exactly.

.... as a man's spirit.

What does that mean?? Where in Scripture would you find this notion explained??? You make up the WEIRDEST stuff, trying to justify complete nonsense.

 

[God's Truth]

Where is Jesus seated right now?

One book that is clear about it is Hebrews

Hebrews 1:3

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Hebrews 1:13

But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Hebrews 8:1

Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

Hebrews 10:12

But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Hebrews 12:2

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Ephesians 1:20
Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Why not believe what God's word says?

God the Father came as a man.

He is not seated in the throne of God but on the right hand of the throne of God.

I gave scripture that says Jesus is set on the Father's throne. I gave many scriptures showing it is the throne of God and the Lamb.

Where are the believers in this age of grace seated right now?

We are seated with him.

Ephesians 2:6

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Yes, indeed, Jesus has a name above all names

That means he has the name 'God'.

Philippians 2:9

Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

God gave him what?

a. a name above all names

b. the name above all names


Did Jesus always have that name?

a. no

b. yes

Who gave Jesus that name?

a. He always had it

b. He gave it to himself

c. God gave him that name

Did Jesus always have that name?

a. Yes, so it was unnecessary for God or himself to give to him

b. He did not have that name beforehand, so God gave it to him at the appropriate time and reason

Quit jumping to such unscriptural conclusions, you make Christianity look stupid

You are doing that.

 

[genuineoriginal]

They're ONE and The Same.:duh:

In other words, you don't believe that God Sent His Son.

If you don't see Him as God, your faith is blind.

Why should I doubt what Jesus stated?

John 10:36b 36b [JESUS]I said, I am the Son of God[/JESUS]​

I am not one of the people that plan to stand in front of Him and try to correct Him by telling Him, "No, no, you meant to say you are God."