Jesus CANNOT be Jehovah/YHVH God

[TrevorL]

Greetings again God's Truth,

So you agree with me? Jesus is God come as a man. God the Father commanded Jesus to do things, and Jesus did them, including raising himself from the dead.

No, I do not agree with you, but I can partially understand your perspective. What I was trying to suggest is that John 8:28 is a verse that can help to unlock the “I am he” theme presented in John’s Gospel. If you disregard this in demanding that John 8:28 is teaching the Trinity then I suggest you may be missing this important key. Also I do not believe that John 8:24, 28, 58 are a direct link with Exodus 3:14.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again 7djengo7,

You say "the Father's glory is underived", but then you turn around and try to make Philippians 2:9-11 KJV to say that the Father is DERIVING GLORY from Jesus.

I suggest that to explain the concept of glory we need to look firstly at the fact that God the Father is a glorious being and God the Father has always existed. Another aspect of glory is that when we praise God, then this is giving glory to God. Perhaps you may look at a good dictionary to understand the full range of the word glory.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[7djengo7]

Greetings again 7djengo7, I suggest that to explain the concept of glory we need to look firstly at the fact that God the Father is a glorious being and God the Father has always existed. Another aspect of glory is that when we praise God, then this is giving glory to God. Perhaps you may look at a good dictionary to understand the full range of the word glory.

Kind regards
Trevor

Having said, "the Father's glory is underived", you have, just now, once again, contradicted yourself, by stating that God DERIVES GLORY from people giving glory to God.

 

[way 2 go]

Joh 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

No problem. Jesus was praying for his Father to fulfill the glory God planned for Jesus "before the world existed".
This text simply doesn't say what you think it says.

It says Jesus has glory before the world existed

what version of the bible are you reading from where it has the word "planned" in it ?

Sorry, Jesus saying "my commandments" is never in context discussing the Mosaic Law. IT is discussing "a better covenant", the New Testament, a new Law.

my commandments ,Father's commandments ,are God's commandments.

Joh_15:10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.

 

[way 2 go]

Only Saul was the king of Israel.
David was the king of Israel.
therefore David is Saul? NO.

Your logic does not work.

strawman

both David &Saul were kings

logic is sound

I said Jesus and the Father are both God
I did not say Jesus is the Father


Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
my point is the commandments are God's commandments which Jesus claims are his commandments
therefore Jesus is God


Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
my point is only God is lord of the sabbath and Jesus claims to be Lord of the sabbath
therefore Jesus is God

 

[way 2 go]

Jesus is our Lord and as such is worthy of worship.
Jesus sits on the throne of David, which means He is a king and as such is worthy of worship.

If Jesus is God we should worship him , if not he is a false christ and would be idolatry

Psa 49:7 Truly no man can ransom another, or give to God the price of his life,

Joh 20:28 Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again 7djengo7,

Having said, "the Father's glory is underived", you have, just now, once again, contradicted yourself, by stating that God DERIVES GLORY from people giving glory to God.

You seem to be having difficulty with a simple language concept. You could even look at a good English Dictionary as well as the use of Strong’s to determine where the word glory is used in the various Scripture passages. I am not volunteering to be your English teacher when you can do this basic research.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[glorydaz]

Greetings again 7djengo7, I suggest that to explain the concept of glory we need to look firstly at the fact that God the Father is a glorious being and God the Father has always existed. Another aspect of glory is that when we praise God, then this is giving glory to God. Perhaps you may look at a good dictionary to understand the full range of the word glory.

Kind regards
Trevor

You touch on both sides, but that is not the Glory of God.

God's Glory is the manifestation of God's Holiness.

Isaiah 6:3KJV
And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.​

Holy Father

Holy Son

Holy Spirit

Holy Holy Holy

 

[7djengo7]

Greetings again 7djengo7, You seem to be having difficulty with a simple language concept. You could even look at a good English Dictionary as well as the use of Strong’s to determine where the word glory is used in the various Scripture passages. I am not volunteering to be your English teacher when you can do this basic research.

Kind regards
Trevor

Hehehe. You contradicted yourself, egregiously, and I called you out on it. And THAT bit of transparent stupidity (your post, #667) is the best you could come up with to try to save face for yourself! And, you failed!

 

[glorydaz]

Hehehe. You contradicted yourself, egregiously, and I called you out on it. And THAT bit of transparent stupidity (your post, #667) is the best you could come up with to try to save face for yourself! And, you failed!

Yep, he did, having nothing but words without knowledge to start off with, and then to add condescension to cover them up. Not good.

 

[chair]

Strange indeed but we are fortunate the Christians know there is a 10 at all...

jews attempted through slander and false witness to have believing jews and goyim think that Yahushua changed...even destroyed...the customs delivered by Moses

This is a new one to me- blaiming the Jews for perceived problems in Christian theology. Better to take responsibility than to blame everything on the Eternal Scapegoat.

 

[7djengo7]

Yep, he did, having nothing but words without knowledge to start off with, and then to add condescension to cover them up. Not good.

I've always been amused by the "Go look it up in a dictionary to see EXACTLY WHAT I MEANT BY IT" shtick.
Also, it somehow always happens that, as soon as you have shined light upon an embarrassing incongruity within somebody's affirmations, you start hearing the fuzzy language of "Oh, well there are many different senses of ______!"

 

[Dartman]

...

Read this about JESUS:

Revelation 1:5
and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood,

Jesus is the RULER of the kings of the earth.

Yes, he is!

Does the Bible say that about any other king or man?

This is close;

Dan 2:37-39 Thou, O king, art king of kings, unto whom the God of heaven hath given the kingdom, the power, and the strength, and the glory;
38 and wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the birds of the heavens hath he given into thy hand, and hath made thee to rule over them all: thou art the head of gold.
39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee; and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

Read what this says:

1 Timothy 6:15
which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,


Did you read that?

Yes, I did.

The scripture says that GOD is the ONLY RULER and King of kings.

Yes, it does.

The other scripture says Jesus is.

No, it doesn't.
Rev 1:5 says Jesus is "the ruler of the kings of the earth"..... NOT that Jesus doesn't have a King over him ....... his God who is in heaven.
The point of the Scripture you quoted, doesn't do away with the MANY passages that CLEARLY establish Jehovah/YHVH God as Christ's God, as Christ's MAKER, as "all in all".

1 Cor 15:24-28 then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign until He has put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
27 For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to him.
28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to him, so that God may be all in all.


Jesus is not God.

In "the end", Jesus turns the Kingdom over TO his God.

 

[glorydaz]

I've always been amused by the "Go look it up in a dictionary to see EXACTLY WHAT I MEANT BY IT" shtick.
Also, it somehow always happens that, as soon as you have shined light upon an embarrassing incongruity within somebody's affirmations, you start hearing the fuzzy language of "Oh, well there are many different senses of ______!"

I think that's called "splainin'" :chuckle:

 

[7djengo7]

Rev 1:5 says Jesus is "the ruler of the kings of the earth"..... NOT that Jesus doesn't have a King over him ....... his God who is in heaven.

You just denied that God the Father is the ruler of the kings of the earth. Brilliant!

 

[Dartman]

Joh 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.



It says Jesus has glory before the world existed

Yes.

That doesn't mean Jesus was THERE. It means God had complete foreknowledge of the events about to unfold after Christ's prayer. And that God had glory planned for his beloved son.

God had glory planned for ALL the believers;

Rom 8:29-30 For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified.




1 Cor 2:7 but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;



The believers were not there when God PLANNED this glory for them. That glory was based on God's foreknowledge.

 

[God's Truth]

Greetings again God's Truth, No, I do not agree with you, but I can partially understand your perspective. What I was trying to suggest is that John 8:28 is a verse that can help to unlock the “I am he” theme presented in John’s Gospel. If you disregard this in demanding that John 8:28 is teaching the Trinity then I suggest you may be missing this important key. Also I do not believe that John 8:24, 28, 58 are a direct link with Exodus 3:14.

Kind regards
Trevor

I'm not a trinitarian, but I agree that Jesus is God.

How do you miss the 'I Am' scriptures?

 

[7djengo7]

That doesn't mean Jesus was THERE. It means God had complete foreknowledge of the events about to unfold after Christ's prayer. And that God had glory planned for his beloved son.

Of course it means Jesus was THERE! Jesus couldn't HAVE GLORY WITH GOD THE FATHER before the world was without BEING THERE before the world was.

John 17:5 KJV says:

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I HAD WITH THEE before the world was.

It clearly does NOT say:

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which YOU PLANNED FOR ME before the world was.

You should stop letting Satan do the thinking for you; he's making a pitiful quack of you.

 

[God's Truth]

Yes, he is!

This is close;

Dan 2:37-39 Thou, O king, art king of kings, unto whom the God of heaven hath given the kingdom, the power, and the strength, and the glory;
38 and wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the birds of the heavens hath he given into thy hand, and hath made thee to rule over them all: thou art the head of gold.
39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee; and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
Yes, I did.


Yes, it does.

No, it doesn't.
Rev 1:5 says Jesus is "the ruler of the kings of the earth"..... NOT that Jesus doesn't have a King over him ....... his God who is in heaven.
The point of the Scripture you quoted, doesn't do away with the MANY passages that CLEARLY establish Jehovah/YHVH God as Christ's God, as Christ's MAKER, as "all in all".

1 Cor 15:24-28 then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign until He has put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
27 For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to him.
28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to him, so that God may be all in all.


Jesus is not God.

In "the end", Jesus turns the Kingdom over TO his God.

You have not disproved what I said.
There is only one King of kings and ruler of all the earth. That is what is said about God the Father and Jesus Christ.

Jesus will hand over the kingdom to the Father because we will be just like God.

God the Father came as a man for us. We go through Jesus Christ to be saved---we go through what God did for us.

When all enemies are gone, then we no longer have to have an Interceder. We will be one like God and Jesus Christ, who is God.

 

[7djengo7]

what version of the bible are you reading from where it has the word "planned" in it ?

He's not reading the Bible. He's writing his own bible.