James 1:1 refutes MAD

[JudgeRightly]

Not everyone stay the same and many don't even know what Christianity is all about.

Self assurance is another root of corruption of many churches, imo.

just saying.

So I can't rely on this passage to rest assured of my salvation?

Any so-called Christian who rejects the new covenant promise is an imposter filled with unbelief.

So I haven't really been a Christian since 5th grade? Right.

I reject that the New Covenant was meant for the body of Christ.

That doesn't make me an unbeliever. And you don't have the authority to dictate the terms of salvation that God has already set in the Bible.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Still not seeing why you think that Acts 28 is the marker. Paul was not a circumcision apostle though he did preach to unbelieving Israel.

Again, Sir Robert wrote this describing what happened at Acts 28:

"When these, the Jews of Rome, refused the proffered mercy, his mission to his nation was at an end; and for the first time separating himself from them, he exclaimed,’ Well spake the Holy Ghost through Isaiah the prophet unto your fathers’—and he went on to repeat the words which our Lord Himself had used at that kindred crisis of His ministry when the nation had openly rejected Him (Acts xxviii. 25 R.V.; Matt. xiii. 13, cf. xii. 14-16)" (Anderson, The Silence of God, Appendix, Note # 3, p.175).​

There is no evidence that anyone other than Paul and his associates were going into the world to preach to the Jews and by then the Twelve and the rest of the disciples had surely gone to every place in Israel. Therefore, any special ministry to the Jews came to an end after Paul was jailed and the Jews in Rome rejected his testimony.

Besides that, during the Acts period the gospel which was preached to the Jews during was the fact that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. Then after the Acts period had come to an end the gospel which was preached to the Jews (1 Pet.1:18-19) was the same message which was preached to the Gentiles.

Do you think that the Pentecostal dispensation came to an end? If so, when would you say that it ended?

 

[Danoh]

The Jews continued to keep the law throughout the Acts period (see Acts 21: 20-26). Many people ask, since Paul was teaching the churches which he founded that they are no longer under the law, (Gal. 3: 23-25) then why did the Jews in the Jerusalem church continue to keep the law?

When Paul went to Jerusalem at Acts 21 he too kept the law, even going so far as to make offerings required under the law (Acts21:26). I believe the following words of Paul explain his actions at Acts 21: 26:

"And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law" (1 Cor. 9: 20).​

I believe that it was of the will of God for the Jerusalem church to remain under the law, and His reason would be so that He might gain those who were under the law. But this did not remain in effect. In his role as the "apostle to the Gentiles" the Apostle Paul had gone throughout the Roman Empire preaching to the Gentiles, and when he arrived at a new town or city the first thing which he did was to go the the Jews and speak in their synagogues. He was also fulfilling the Lord’s commandment that he should also go to "the children of Israel" (Acts 9: 15).

His ministry to the Jews ended when he was carried as a prisoner to Rome and spoke before the Jews there. Sir Robert Anderson says,"When these, the Jews of Rome, refused the proffered mercy, his mission to his nation was at an end; and for the first time separating himself from them, he exclaimed,’ Well spake the Holy Ghost through Isaiah the prophet unto your fathers’—and he went on to repeat the words which our Lord Himself had used at that kindred crisis of His ministry when the nation had openly rejected Him (Acts xxviii. 25 R.V.; Matt. xiii. 13, cf. xii. 14-16)" (Anderson, The Silence of God, Appendix, Note # 3, p.175).

We can see that a change did come about after Paul’s ministry to the children of Israel had ended by the witness of the Jewish epistles (which were written after the Acts period had ended). During the Acts period the Jews continued to keep the law, and Peter described the law as a "yoke" which the Jews were not able to bear (Acts 15: 10). But by the time Peter wrote his first epistle we read that the Jews were "free" and at "liberty" from the law:

"As free, and not using your liberty for a cloak of maliciousness, but as the servants of God" (1 Pet.2:16).​

Peter’s words there practically mirror Paul’s when he is speaking of the law:

"For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another" (Gal.5:13).​

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage" (Gal.5:1).​

The author of Hebrews also says that the law has been annulled: "For there is verily an annulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by which we draw nigh unto God…By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament" (Heb.7:18,19,22).

Very well, a rebuttal and a little satire, while I'm at it :chuckle:

Yep - yours is veey clearly the result not only of a failure at noting some rather basic things that differ, but of the waxing worse and worse in that kind of a thing over the years - to where you are now where you are...

At your set in long dried over concrete Acts 9 / Acts 13 / Acts 28...hybrid.

Here, I'll give ya just one clue why THEY actually remained under the Law - even AFTER the Cross.

One clue of others that why is merely a part of.

Deuteronomy 4:5 Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the LORD my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it. 4:6 Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people. 4:7 For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for? 4:8 And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?

Because it IS their very IDENTITY in the sight of the Nations.

Aw, what do I know...

Exodus 19:3 And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel; 19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself. 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Yep, clueless about this, Danoh is...

Never mind Isaiah's directive to and Prophetic description of the Twelve and their Israelite converts in the sight of their Unbelieving nation one day...

Isaiah 8:12 Say ye not, A confederacy, to all them to whom this people shall say, A confederacy; neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid. 8:13 Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. 8:14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. 8:15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken. 8:16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples. 8:17 And I will wait upon the LORD, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him. 8:18 Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion. 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

No wonder that Lord described there: Christ; said the following to those Disciples 31st al, Prophesied of by Isaiah...

Matthew 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

But what did Isaiah know - he was just some old Prophet who never read Anderson.

Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. 2:5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.

Of course, poor old Paul never read Anderson either.

Romans 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, 2:18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; 2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

Yep, Paul himself had nothing on Jerry's books based error...

Romans 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Sorry, bro; think I'll pass on your hybrid.

Nevertheless, Romans 14:5 towards ya - til you are fully persuaded in your own mind otherwise.

Romans 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

In memory of Romans 5:8 towards ya once more, then bro.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

At your set in long dried over concrete Acts 9 / Acts 13 / Acts 28...hybrid.

You still have not said whether or not there was such a thing as a Pentecostal Dispensation. You jumped all over Anderson's teaching because he spoke of such a dispensation so tell us whether or not there was such a dispensation.

In regard to the beginning of the present dispensation of the grace of God here are three quotes from the pen of Paul where he speaks of a "dispensation" that has been committed or given to him:

"If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me toward you" (Eph. 3:2).​

"Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God" (Col.1:25).​

"...a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me" (1 Cor.9:17).​

The "dispensation" which was committed to Paul is in regard to "God's grace", a "ministry", and a "gospel." Here Paul sums up his dispensational responsibility:

"But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20: 24).​

There can be no doubt whatsoever that the event which marks the beginning of the "dispensation of grace" is the preaching of the "gospel of 6the grace of God." And that did not happen until Acts 13.

 

[Right Divider]

Again, Sir Robert wrote this describing what happened at Acts 28:

"When these, the Jews of Rome, refused the proffered mercy, his mission to his nation was at an end; and for the first time separating himself from them, he exclaimed,’ Well spake the Holy Ghost through Isaiah the prophet unto your fathers’—and he went on to repeat the words which our Lord Himself had used at that kindred crisis of His ministry when the nation had openly rejected Him (Acts xxviii. 25 R.V.; Matt. xiii. 13, cf. xii. 14-16)" (Anderson, The Silence of God, Appendix, Note # 3, p.175).​

There is no evidence that anyone other than Paul and his associates were going into the world to preach to the Jews and by then the Twelve and the rest of the disciples had surely gone to every place in Israel. Therefore, any special ministry to the Jews came to an end after Paul was jailed and the Jews in Rome rejected his testimony.

Seem like this scripture disagrees with your take on that.

Matt 10:23 (AKJV/PCE)​

(10:23) But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. ​

Besides that, during the Acts period the gospel which was preached to the Jews during was the fact that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. Then after the Acts period had come to an end the gospel which was preached to the Jews (1 Pet.1:18-19) was the same message which was preached to the Gentiles.

Do you think that the Pentecostal dispensation came to an end? If so, when would you say that it ended?

I'm still not convinced of the PD, though I understand your argument for it. It seems to me that if we use that technique to distinguish dispensations, we will end of with hundreds of them throughout Israel's history.

 

[Danoh]

You still have not said whether or not there was such a thing as a Pentecostal Dispensation. You jumped all over Anderson's teaching because he spoke of such a dispensation so tell us whether or not there was such a dispensation.

In regard to the beginning of the present dispensation of the grace of God here are three quotes from the pen of Paul where he speaks of a "dispensation" that has been committed or given to him:

"If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me toward you" (Eph. 3:2).​

"Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God" (Col.1:25).​

"...a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me" (1 Cor.9:17).​

The "dispensation" which was committed to Paul is in regard to "God's grace", a "ministry", and a "gospel." Here Paul sums up his dispensational responsibility:

"But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20: 24).​

There can be no doubt whatsoever that the event which marks the beginning of the "dispensation of grace" is the preaching of the "gospel of 6the grace of God." And that did not happen until Acts 13.

Lol - what is "the 6the grace of God"?

And I am jumping all over you, not Anderson :chuckle:

And, well at least we agree that "a dispensation" and "the dispensation" are one and the same.

You'll find not all MADs on here see those two as being one and the same :chuckle:

And nope - the dispensation of the grace of God actually began before Paul was first inspired to call it that - for he was its first beneficiary.

Only AFTER he was saved under its terms was he then "taught it by revelation" Gal. 1; 1 Tim. 1, etc.

Rom. 14:5.

 

[Danoh]

Seem like this scripture disagrees with your take on that.

Matt 10:23 (AKJV/PCE)​

(10:23) But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. ​

I'm still not convinced of the PD, though I understand your argument for it. It seems to me that if we use that technique to distinguish dispensations, we will end of with hundreds of them throughout Israel's history.

Yep - on both of those :thumb:

Rom. 14:5

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Seem like this scripture disagrees with your take on that.

Matt 10:23 (AKJV/PCE)​

(10:23) But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. ​

When we examine what the Lord Jesus said there He also said this:

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved" (Mt.10:22).​

I would say this is referring to the time mentioned here by the Lord:

"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18. Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened" (Mt.24:11-22).​

In regard to Matthew 10:23 Louis A. Barbieri, Jr., writes the following:

"These words will find their fullest manifestation in the days of the Tribulation when the gospel will be carried throughout the entire world before Jesus Christ returns in power and glory to establish His kingdom on the earth" (Barbieri, "Matthew" in The Bible Knowledge Commentary; New Testament, 42).​

Now a couple of questions for you. Do you think that there was such a thing as a Pentecostal dispensation? If your answer is "yes" then do you think that it is still in effect today? If not, when do you think it ended?

Thanks!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

And I am jumping all over you, not Anderson

No, you used Anderson's words about a Pentecostal Dispensation in your feeble attempt to try to prove that he is an Acts 28 dispensationalist.

Why will you not answer my question?

Do you think that there was a Pentecostal Dispensation?

And nope - the dispensation of the grace of God actually began before Paul was first inspired to call it that - for he was its first beneficiary.

First beneficiary of what?

 

[Right Divider]

When we examine what the Lord Jesus said there He also said this:

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved" (Mt.10:22).​

I would say this is referring to the time mentioned here by the Lord:

"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18. Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened" (Mt.24:11-22).​

In regard to Matthew 10:23 Louis A. Barbieri, Jr., writes the following:

"These words will find their fullest manifestation in the days of the Tribulation when the gospel will be carried throughout the entire world before Jesus Christ returns in power and glory to establish His kingdom on the earth" (Barbieri, "Matthew" in The Bible Knowledge Commentary; New Testament, 42).​

I don't think that this addresses the issue at all. Since the great tribulation did not even begin yet. That scripture clearly says that "Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come". Since the Son of man has not come, then they could not have "gone over the cities of Israel".

I'm always suspicious when I see people using "beat around the bush" language like "find their fullest manifestation".

Now a couple of questions for you. Do you think that there was such a thing as a Pentecostal dispensation? If your answer is "yes" then do you think that it is still in effect today? If not, when do you think it ended?

Thanks!

That does not make sense Jerry. If yes .... if no means that I don't think there is such a thing, so why would I think it ended?

I still think that the events at and after Pentecost were simply the ongoing ministry of God and the people of Israel as spelled out in prophecy. I don't think that the twelve received a new dispensation in Acts 1. I think that they continued in the ministry that the LORD Jesus Christ has already given then. That they were to wait for the pouring out of the Spirit on the lawfully required feast day for Israel was not a disruption of their ongoing ministry with continued prophetic fulfillment.

Once again Jerry, thanks for your time. I do, very sincerely, respect your views.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I don't think that the twelve received a new dispensation in Acts 1. I think that they continued in the ministry that the LORD Jesus Christ has already given then.

A Biblical Dispensation is a stewardship and the stewards have a responsibility to do something. The following stewardship responsibility was given to the disciples of the Lord Jesus and it was to begin on the day of Pentecost:

"But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth" (Acts 1:8).​

That stewardship responsibility was not to even start until they received power when the Holy Spirit came upon them so I cannot understand why you would say that they did not receive a new dispensation at that time. Can you give me any evidence that they carried out that stewardship responsibility before the day of Pentecost?

Thanks!

 

[meshak]

You deny the cross as the power of God and couldn't tell anyone if one is saved or lost from your blind standpoint (2 Corinthians 4:3-4 KJV). "just saying."

good day.

 

[meshak]

So I can't rely on this passage to rest assured of my salvation?



So I haven't really been a Christian since 5th grade? Right.

I reject that the New Covenant was meant for the body of Christ.

That doesn't make me an unbeliever. And you don't have the authority to dictate the terms of salvation that God has already set in the Bible.

good day.

 

[Danoh]

This isn't about me, MADs or MAD. It's about the Cross of Christ.

These here deny the Gospel of grace. They've seen it plainly proclaimed here often, but dispute it every time. Dozens of threads have been started which say they're targeting MAD but end up preaching false gospels of works, every single time. They seek to refute the Gospel of grace and would replace it with various other gospels of condemnation (for that's where every one of their gospels will lead them). And you claim to realize all of this.

Yet you run interference for them as if they are not the enemies of the Cross that they are, but just some who merely disagree.

I am not your judge but something about you just has not added up ever since you arrived.

If you say so...here - some more upside down cake for ya :chuckle:

1 Corinthians 4:11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace; 4:12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it: 4:13 Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.

Rom. 5:7, 8.

 

[Epoisses]

Yes, they will indeed judge the Twelve Tribes. To which tribe do you belong?

I belong to a mysterious and lost 13th clan. The spiritual tribes of Israel are called clans for those in the know which is not you. There are 5 Orthodox clans, 3 Catholic clans and 4 Protestant clans. People only get promoted to the clan ranks when they gain a full understanding of the gospel. Catholic and Orthodox clan members often come from the monasteries where only one in a thousand ever comes to an understanding that human works are worthless in the eyes of God. The Protestant clans are Anglican, Calvinist, Lutheran and Arminian. The Anglican and Lutheran clans promote from within their organization. The Calvinist clan promotes from Presbyterian and Reformed churches. The Arminian clan promotes from Baptist, Methodist and Pentecostal churches. The Protestant clans have no monastic structure so they use fringe churches like SDA, Mormon and Jehovah's witnesses in a monastic capacity. Christians in those churches who figure out the utter worthlessness of their extra biblical teachings and overt legalism are often promoted to various Protestant clans. New clan members are often shocked to discover that at the higher ranks Orthodox, Catholics and Protestants all work together as one harmonious whole within the body of Christ.

 

[Epoisses]

I just utterly destroyed, demolished and annihilated the Dispensational hermeneutic with one thread! The Dispie losers can't figure out that they are beaten back to the stone age. Losers always lose and can never admit defeat because they are losers.

 

[Danoh]

I just utterly destroyed, demolished and annihilated the Dispensational hermeneutic with one thread! The Dispie losers can't figure out that they are beaten back to the stone age. Losers always lose and can never admit defeat because they are losers.

If you say so...here - some more upside down cake for ya :chuckle:

1 Corinthians 4:11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace; 4:12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it: 4:13 Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.

Rom. 5:7, 8.

 

[Epoisses]

If you say so...here - some more upside down cake for ya :chuckle:

1 Corinthians 4:11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace; 4:12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it: 4:13 Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.

Rom. 5:7, 8.

You're not a member of the body of Christ. You belong to Hagar the queen of the earth.

 

[Danoh]

You're not a member of the body of Christ. You belong to Hagar the queen of the earth.

Romans 5:8 towards you.

 

[Epoisses]

Romans 5:8 towards you.

Love tells the truth and you are snared in the lies of the devil. Dispensationalism is evil and a religion of the flesh. If you can't see that then you are blinded by the god of this world.