ECT Israel is not the BOC

Tambora

Tambora

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Right Divider said:
Point being that when God called BOTH Christ and Israel His firstborn son, so there is clearly a DIFFERENT CONTEXT for each.
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Yep.

Ephraim is called GOD's firstborn. Jer 31:9
David is called GOD's firstborn. Psa 89:27
Israel (Jacob) is called GOD's firstborn. Ex 4:22

And yet none of them were the 1st born of their fathers, nor the only son of their fathers.

"firstborn" is about rank, not sequence (as in 1st 2nd 3rd of sons born).

Likewise, the Lord Jesus Christ is called 'firstborn' of creation.
Rank, not sequence.
 
1Mind1Spirit

1Mind1Spirit

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tetelestai said:
Isaac was Abraham's "only begotten" son, not his firstborn son.

God didn't have two sons.

Also, one son was born of the flesh, and the other son was born according to the promise.
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So then..... only begotten can be defined as the son of promise..... :think:
 
tetelestai

tetelestai

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Tambora said:
"firstborn" is about rank, not sequence (as in 1st 2nd 3rd of sons born).
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Er, no.

Firstborn is who was born first.

You keep missing the point.

Ephraim was never Joseph's firstborn son. Manasseh was always Joseph's firstborn son.

Yet, God called Ephraim HIS firstborn son. Not Joseph's firstborn son, but HIS firstborn son.

The reason being, is that "Ephriam" is synonymous with the house of Israel.

Which is why Israel is also called God's firstborn son.
 
Tambora

Tambora

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tetelestai said:
Ephraim was not a firstborn.
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Scripture disagrees with you. Jer 31:9
Do not confuse the rank of being called 'firstborn' with the sequence of being 1st born.

He had an older brother named Manasseh.
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Jacob and David had older brothers too, and yet they are still called GOD's firstborn.
Do not confuse the rank of being called 'firstborn' with the sequence of being 1st born.
 
tetelestai

tetelestai

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Tambora said:
Scripture disagrees with you. Jer 31:9
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Being Joseph's firstborn is not the same as being God's firstborn.

Ephraim was called God's firstborn, he wasn't called Joseph's firstborn.

Manasseh was Joseph's firstborn:

(Gen 41:51) Joseph named his firstborn Manasseh and said, "It is because God has made me forget all my trouble and all my father's household."

Compare to Jer 31:9:

(Jer 31:9) ....because I am Israel’s father,
and Ephraim is my firstborn son.

Again, Ephraim was God's firstborn son, not Joseph's. Joseph's firstborn son was Manasseh.
 
Tambora

Tambora

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tetelestai said:
Er, no.

Firstborn is who was born first.

You keep missing the point.

Ephraim was never Joseph's firstborn son. Manasseh was always Joseph's firstborn son.

Yet, God called Ephraim HIS firstborn son. Not Joseph's firstborn son, but HIS firstborn son.

The reason being, is that "Ephriam" is synonymous with the house of Israel.

Which is why Israel is also called God's firstborn son.
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You are the one that keeps missing the point.

Israel was called 'frstborn' (Ex 4:22), it was the whole house of Israel (all 12 tribes, sons of Jacob), not a divided kingdom.
So, no, Ephraim is not synonymous with the Israel (all 12 tribes) that is called firstborn.
 
tetelestai

tetelestai

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Tambora said:
So, no, Ephraim is not synonymous with the Israel (all 12 tribes) that is called firstborn.
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Ephraim is synonymous with the House of Israel (10 tribes).

That should tell you something.

(Ezk 37:15) 6 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:

Why did God call Ephraim HIS firstborn son, and not Judah, or Reuben, or Joseph, or any of the other sons of Jacob?
 
Tambora

Tambora

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tetelestai said:
Ephraim is synonymous with the House of Israel (10 tribes).

That should tell you something.

(Ezk 37:15) 6 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:
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Ephraim being called firstborn is not synonymous with Israel being called firstborn.
Ephraim is called firstborn because he had the rank of being above/exalted/higher in rank than the other tribes of the Northern Kingdom.
He certainly wasn't the 1st born in sequence.
David is called firstborn because he had the rank of being above/exalted/higher in rank than the other kings of all the other nations.
He certainly wasn't the 1st born in sequence.
Israel (all 12 tribes, sons of Jacob) is called firstborn because they had the rank of being above/exalted/higher in rank than the all the other kingdoms.
Jacob certainly wasn't the 1st born in sequence.

It's about rank, not sequence.
 
Tambora

Tambora

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tetelestai said:
Being Joseph's firstborn is not the same as being God's firstborn.

Ephraim was called God's firstborn, he wasn't called Joseph's firstborn.

Manasseh was Joseph's firstborn:

(Gen 41:51) Joseph named his firstborn Manasseh and said, "It is because God has made me forget all my trouble and all my father's household."

Compare to Jer 31:9:

(Jer 31:9) ....because I am Israel’s father,
and Ephraim is my firstborn son.

Again, Ephraim was God's firstborn son, not Joseph's. Joseph's firstborn son was Manasseh.
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And again, Israel (all 12 tribes) and David are also called GOD's firstborn.
So which of them (Ephraim, David, or Israel) was the 1st in sequence to be called GOD's firstborn?



Rank, not sequence.
 
tetelestai

tetelestai

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Tambora said:
Ephraim being called firstborn is not synonymous with Israel being called firstborn.
Ephraim is called firstborn because he had the rank of being above/exalted/higher in rank than the other tribes of the Northern Kingdom.
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Nope.

Here's why:

Jacob(Israel) put his right hand on Ephraim's head, and said the following:

(Gen 48:16) the Angel who has delivered me from all harm
—may he bless these boys.
May they be called by my name
and the names of my fathers Abraham and Isaac,
and may they increase greatly
on the earth.”

Thus, Ephraim was called Israel (God's firstborn son).
 
Nang

Nang

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Tambora said:
And again, Israel (all 12 tribes) and David are also called GOD's firstborn.
So which of them (Ephraim, David, or Israel) was the 1st in sequence to be called GOD's firstborn?



Rank, not sequence.
Click to expand...

Who was the first one to resurrect bodily from the dead?
 
tetelestai

tetelestai

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Tambora said:
So which of them (Ephraim, David, or Israel) was the 1st in sequence to be called GOD's firstborn?
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They all point to Christ Jesus, God's firstborn, and only begotten son.

That's why God calls them HIS firstborn.

Which is why those in Christ Jesus are sons of God:

(John 1:12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

(Rom 8:14) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

(Phil 2:15) That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

No matter how hard you fight it, those in Christ Jesus, are the Israel of God, as Israel is the firstborn son of God.
 
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