Islamic Terrorists France: 12 dead, police gunned down

[Repentance]

Ridiculous. As Granite stated, YOU are justifying the actions of these low life, maniacal cretins.

You are part of the problem.

I wanted them eliminated but not through murder.

If you are a Christian, you must know that freedom of expression that included freedom to blaspheme is a Western concept and like many other western concepts has no biblical basis and is not Christian in nature and contradicts the commandments of God. You must not blaspheme nor must you tolerate blasphemy.

 

[Nazaroo]

If someone was to print and spread Hitler's book you would certainly stop him or her right?

But kill him? Nope but what was done achieved one thing but was in a way more evil. That's all

You have just summed up why the Koran must be banned
and the majority of copies destroyed,
and only one or two copies held in research libraries for historians.

Just like Hitler's book.

 

[Granite]

Only in a way.

...which is way too much.

Freedom of expression should have a limit - they brought it down to themselves.

And this, savage, is complete bull. Victim blaming. Your inability to understand the concept of a free society poses a threat to civilization.

I wanted them eliminated - not their lives but what they were doing. Unfortunately the way it was done was foolish and back-firing.

Eliminating a free society may be your goal, and I'm glad you're blatant enough to say so. Many of you people are too cowardly or oily to admit as much.

If someone was to print and spread Hitler's book you would certainly stop him or her right?

Assuming I was in any kind of position to oppose the publication of this book--which I'm not, sorry to break it to you--no, I would not. It may interest you to know it's freely available in the United States. "Stop him" from publishing a book isn't the way it works here, just in case you were wondering.

And for a Muslim to knock Mein Kampf is especially hypocritical, given its popularity in the Middle East.

 

[Alate_One]

The nation of Israel used to face Jerusalem and in Jerusalem the holy of holies. They worship God the Lord of the Universe and not any other object.

The holy of holies, is a place - the presence of God, not as much an object. Which btw you plunked a giant mosque on top of the general area. Not gonna cause conflict there . . . oh wait!

What does the black stone symbolize? Why touch it? Just because Muhammad did it?

In the earliest history of Mohammedan Islam Muslims too used to join the Jews in praying at the direction of Jerusalem. Its just that. A direction for unity. We broke away from Jerusalem and to Mecca and Kaabah (the house of God built by Abraham and Ishmael for the purpose of the Ishmaelites who were intially barbaric people before God made them into a great nation with Islam).

You show your ignorance. The kaabah does not host the black stone - it is outside the kaabah. The black stone was once stolen in the 1700s if I'm not mistaken and its now broken into pieces. The kaabah was flooded at some times in history and Muslims believe its gonna be destroyed anyway. Kinda absurd to say we worship the house of God and not God. Firstly define worship

The veneration of the black stone on the kaabah is likely a holdover from pagan ritual, which your prophet retained to help pacify the pagans of the time. I find it rather humorous it is such a central part of Islam today.

From the Wiki article on the Black stone:

The Black Stone was revered well before the preaching of Islam by Muhammad. By the time of Muhammad, it was already associated with the Kaaba, a pre-Islamic shrine that was revered as a sacred sanctuary and a site of pilgrimage. In her book, Islam: A Short History, Karen Armstrong asserts that the Kaaba was dedicated to Hubal, a Nabatean deity, and contained 360 idols which either represented the days of the year, or were effigies of the Arabian pantheon. According to Ibn Ishaq, an early biographer of Muhammad, the Ka'aba was itself addressed as a female deity, three generations before the advent of Islam.[9] The Semitic cultures of the Middle East had a tradition of using unusual stones to mark places of worship, a phenomenon which is reflected in the Hebrew Bible as well as the Qur'an,[10] although bowing to or kissing such sacred objects is repeatedly described in the Tenach as idolatrous[11] and was the subject of prophetic rebuke.[12] Some writers remark on the apparent similarity of the Black Stone and its frame to the external female genitalia,[13][14] and ascribe this to its earlier association with fertility rites.

Whatever. Without knowledge and the fear of God people can say everything they want.

Touchy! :chuckle: That is one thing I do not understand about Islam. How can you read the Bible and the life of Christ and turn around and say Muhammad was a better prophet? Even atheists recognize the vast gulf between the two.

 

[republicanchick]

in texas, seventeen bystanders with concealed carry permits would have ended those scumbags

yeh, something the Left don't want you to consider vis a vis gun control laws

read: restrictions on freedom

 

[Rusha]

I wanted them eliminated but not through murder.

And I want a billionaire dollars ... like yesterday. Too bad, so sad, huh? IF you do not value freedom of expression and speech, then you should be the first person to sit down and shut up.

If you are a Christian, you must know that freedom of expression that included freedom to blaspheme is a Western concept and like many other western concepts has no biblical basis and is not Christian in nature and contradicts the commandments of God. You must not blaspheme nor must you tolerate blasphemy.

I am not ... however, I do know the difference between someone who doesn't care for blaspheme and doesn't use it as compared to the type of complete whack job who believes having his/her PERSONAL beliefs insulted is a good reason to go on a mass murdering spree.

 

[Repentance]

The holy of holies, is a place - the presence of God, not as much an object. Which btw you plunked a giant mosque on top of the general area. Not gonna cause conflict there . . . oh wait!

What does the black stone symbolize? Why touch it? Just because Muhammad did it?

The veneration of the black stone on the kaabah is likely a holdover from pagan ritual, which your prophet retained to help pacify the pagans of the time. I find it rather humorous it is such a central part of Islam today.

From the Wiki article on the Black stone:

The Black Stone was revered well before the preaching of Islam by Muhammad. By the time of Muhammad, it was already associated with the Kaaba, a pre-Islamic shrine that was revered as a sacred sanctuary and a site of pilgrimage. In her book, Islam: A Short History, Karen Armstrong asserts that the Kaaba was dedicated to Hubal, a Nabatean deity, and contained 360 idols which either represented the days of the year, or were effigies of the Arabian pantheon. According to Ibn Ishaq, an early biographer of Muhammad, the Ka'aba was itself addressed as a female deity, three generations before the advent of Islam.[9] The Semitic cultures of the Middle East had a tradition of using unusual stones to mark places of worship, a phenomenon which is reflected in the Hebrew Bible as well as the Qur'an,[10] although bowing to or kissing such sacred objects is repeatedly described in the Tenach as idolatrous[11] and was the subject of prophetic rebuke.[12] Some writers remark on the apparent similarity of the Black Stone and its frame to the external female genitalia,[13][14] and ascribe this to its earlier association with fertility rites.

The kaabah is the house of God built by Abraham for the Ishmaelites. They forgot the true religion and fell into polytheism and paganism. Islam uprooted all pagan and idolatrous influences and purified the Kaabah. It is merely a building for us to face. Nothing much. It is gonna be destroyed anyway. The back stone is a stone from heaven and it is NOT a central thing in Islam. It only plays a role in tawaf. Its not even mentioned in the Quran as far as I know.

Touchy! :chuckle: That is one thing I do not understand about Islam. How can you read the Bible and the life of Christ and turn around and say Muhammad was a better prophet? Even atheists recognize the vast gulf between the two.

Better? The Quran says at numerous instances not to compare Prophets. The only reason why we look towards Muhammad (pbuh) is because he is the Prophet send to us. That's all. He has some special features and so do other Prophets.

Jesus Christ was a man of peace and a servant Prophet. He would return as King as Christ once more and quenched the earth of anti-Christs with the sword and the help of hosts from heaven.

Have you not considered that if Jesus is God or son of God why didn't he stop His father from genociding millions and millions of people in Noah's flood, Sodom and Gommarah etc?

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

I think that the media is being too near sighted on the matter, as usual, and people are just eating it up.

Saying it's an attack on 'freedom of expression' is just a way to avoid what's really going on.
What they are doing is attacking what they see as vanity and dissent from the appeal of God. All attacks have one thing in common, and it's what they see as corrupted vanity. Market towers, 1st world civilians and mockers.

It seems to me like there's always some cop out to get away from the cold, hard fact of why they do what they do. And that just keeps people blind to the whole matter of Islam altogether, thinking instead that they are just angry at little things- no, they are on a crusade. I'll say it again:
A CRUSADE

 

[Jose Fly]

Is it really religion that creates evil or superstitious people.... or is it the other way around?

I don't think religion creates violence or superstition, but rather it encourages those things. Most religions have a very strong "us vs. them" mindset, and they all promote belief, faith, and loyalty over critical thinking and objectivity.

I would bet big on the problem you're perceiving being a human flaw, period. Religion or not, they'd still be horrible people. On the contrary, if some people didn't have a fear of their deity, things would be far worse.

I don't think that's always the case. IMO, religion sometimes gives people a reason to hate other people they otherwise wouldn't care about one way or the other.

 

[Repentance]

Why are you misunderstanding me? I do not approve of murder but at the same time I do not approve of blasphemy. The thing is my wishes have no value at all. I only wish to do the will of God on earth and to live my life according to His wishes and to align my desires and opinions according to His commandments

 

[Quincy]

I wanted them eliminated but not through murder.

If you are a Christian, you must know that freedom of expression that included freedom to blaspheme is a Western concept and like many other western concepts has no biblical basis and is not Christian in nature and contradicts the commandments of God. You must not blaspheme nor must you tolerate blasphemy.

If you find someone to be toxic towards something you hold sacred, then you can ostracize them from your life. You have the power to ignore them and cast them out from your little corner of reality. People who claim blasphemy and threaten violence or censure are full of bunk. They don't want respect for their beliefs, they want control over people. They want to keep others from roasting their sacred pig. The Muslim community could have united in boycotting and ignoring Charlie, having a far more positive impact but instead it waved the flag of blasphemy.

Now people are dead and regardless of whether or not the attackers were true Muslims, the Muslim community needs to start doing more to be amiable on the global scene. You all need to work on silencing the dogs in your ranks. The way things are currently being handled, does nothing for your cause.

 

[Jose Fly]

I'm fine with that, though the "again" is odd because you hadn't made a qualification between the point where Levolor noted fanaticism was at the root, you responded with a singular notation of religious fanaticism and I objected.

Since my first post in this thread, I've had to repeat several times that I didn't say religion was the only source of violence. You were just the latest.

Doesn't bother me. I tend to point out that the problem is rarely with religion (excepting Aztecs and Thuggees, etc.) but with some men using any idea as a means to empower themselves at the expense of others,

Yes, some people do that, and religion is ripe for that sort of exploitation. But we see plenty of instances of religiously-fueled violence that isn't about seizing power.

that atheistic ideas have led to a great deal of death and human suffering, Stalin and Mao between them killing millions upon millions of their own and others, by way of.

None of that was in the name of atheism, in the same way that say, Islamic terrorists are committing atrocities in the name of religion.

There's nothing irrational about the belief in God as a contextual choice. In fact, I'd argue it's a more rational choice. But in any event I'm happy Lev's broader understanding is shared after all.

I've found a lot of irrationality in beliefs about gods. All you have to do is ask a few key questions to expose it.

 

[Alate_One]

The kaabah is the house of God built by Abraham for the Ishmaelites. They forgot the true religion and fell into polytheism and paganism. Islam uprooted all pagan and idolatrous influences and purified the Kaabah. It is merely a building for us to face. Nothing much. It is gonna be destroyed anyway. The back stone is a stone from heaven and it is NOT a central thing in Islam. It only plays a role in tawaf. Its not even mentioned in the Quran as far as I know.

It's one of the five pillars of Islam is it not? Things one should do to be a good Muslim.

Better? The Quran says at numerous instances not to compare Prophets.

Because if you did you'd see the problem with Muhammad. :chuckle:

The only reason why we look towards Muhammad (pbuh) is because he is the Prophet send to us. That's all. He has some special features and so do other Prophets.

Special features like making war and perpetuating pagan rituals.

Jesus Christ was a man of peace and a servant Prophet. He would return as King as Christ once more and quenched the earth of anti-Christs with the sword and the help of hosts from heaven.

Have you not considered that if Jesus is God or son of God why didn't he stop His father from genociding millions and millions of people in Noah's flood, Sodom and Gommarah etc?

A. not millions of millions, B. you seem to be confused with polytheism. C. Jesus mentions judgement but it wasn't His mission on earth, the first time.

 

[rexlunae]

If someone was to print and spread Hitler's book you would certainly stop him or her right?

Nope. I've read portions of Mein Kampf for a class in college. No one was magically inspired to revive the Third Reich, though.

 

[Granite]

Why are you misunderstanding me? I do not approve of murder but at the same time I do not approve of blasphemy.

We understand you just fine. "Blasphemy" for the west doesn't really exist; offensive language, and that which many of us find tasteless, does. That's the price you pay for living in a free society, and that's the distinction you simply don't want to or can't understand.

 

[Selaphiel]

If you are a Christian, you must know that freedom of expression that included freedom to blaspheme is a Western concept and like many other western concepts has no biblical basis and is not Christian in nature and contradicts the commandments of God. You must not blaspheme nor must you tolerate blasphemy.

Do not try to pin that nonsense on Christianity. A God that needs people to avenge him or his prophets is no god at all. It is Satan that sheds the blood of his mockers, as a Christian I believe that when God was mocked, he shed his own blood. A critical difference between Christianity and Islam is the way they treat the crucifiction of Christ. Islam cannot bear that a true prophet was mocked and killed, and thus claim that Christ did not really die. Christianity insists that the incarnation of God himself was humiliated and killed, and his response was "Father forgive them, for they know not what they are doing" (Luke 23:34).

And something does not have to have a biblical and/or a religious basis to be a noble idea. Freedom of speech and expression is a noble value, a morally true value. You are free to disagree with people in return, but not to prevent the people you disagree with from expressing themselves, certainly not with violence. If Muslims (and no, I do not think all Muslims deny the truth of freedom of speech, far from it) cannot accept that, then that is a problem with Islam and their religion.

 

[Repentance]

If you find someone to be toxic towards something you hold sacred, then you can ostracize them from your life. You have the power to ignore them and cast them out from your little corner of reality. People who claim blasphemy and threaten violence or censure are full of bunk. They don't want respect for their beliefs, they want control over people. They want to keep others from roasting their sacred pig. The Muslim community could have united in boycotting and ignoring Charlie, having a far more positive impact but instead it waved the flag of blasphemy.

Now people are dead and regardless of whether or not the attackers were true Muslims, the Muslim community needs to start doing more to be amiable on the global scene. You all need to work on silencing the dogs in your ranks. The way things are currently being handled, does nothing for your cause.

Part of what being Muslim means is that you mustn't give a damn about what the people think of you as long as you have the correct knowledge of what God thinks about your actions. If having a good relationship with the non-Muslim community means sacrificing the values we stand for then we must not do it. If not then there's no harm.

The values we stand for includes the intolerance of blasphemy. It should be silenced in the best way possible. If not we have failed the test and we fail to prevent corruption on earth. Full stop.

The values you people hold dear is freedom of expression. Whatever that prevents the freedom of expression when it is for the good of the status quo should not be tolerated. People who are against freedom of complete expression should be silences. Full stop.

We want to prevent blasphemy. You'll want to prevent any attempts to limit free speech. In a democracy what succeeds is the values of the majority. For that it is evil in our eyes.

 

[Repentance]

Do not try to pin that nonsense on Christianity. A God that needs people to avenge him or his prophets is no god at all. It is Satan that sheds the blood of his mockers, as a Christian I believe that when God was mocked, he shed his own blood. A critical difference between Christianity and Islam is the way they treat the crucifiction of Christ. Islam cannot bear that a true prophet was mocked and killed, and thus claim that Christ did not really die. Christianity insists that the incarnation of God himself was humiliated and killed, and his response was "Father forgive them, for they know not what they are doing" (Luke 23:34).

So it was the Muslim God who ordered the kings of Israel to carry out punishments upon the various other peoples? It was the Muslim God who ordered instant death to apostates, parent curses and blasphemers in the OT?

Kinda funny. God is above what you people attribute to Him. And yeah, we also believe that a lot of Prophets sent to the ancient Israel were killed by their own people. And yes our Prophet too had his share of mockery and insults and torture and he responded mercifully if it was for the greater good.

Not all Muslims deny the crucifixion. The death of Jesus is irrelavant and had no significance in the OT and the Bible if not for St.Paul. We deny that God needs a bloody sacrifice to purify us of sins. What type of God is that? Fortunately our God is Merciful. He forgives all sins though repentance. Only a devil would need blood to be spilt to save sins. I'm telling you.

And something does not have to have a biblical and/or a religious basis to be a noble idea. Freedom of speech and expression is a noble value, a morally true value. You are free to disagree with people in return, but not to prevent the people you disagree with from expressing themselves, certainly not with violence. If Muslims (and no, I do not think all Muslims deny the truth of freedom of speech, far from it) cannot accept that, then that is a problem with Islam and their religion.

Okay soon open homosexuality would be if not already is a noble idea. Why bother with the personal lives of people? Adultery and fornication should be also acceptable. Why also not incest? These should be allowed in a free society.

Christians have gone far astray. Only the Lord of Creation, the Creator, can guide them back.

 

[Rusha]

Why are you misunderstanding me? I do not approve of murder but at the same time I do not approve of blasphemy. The thing is my wishes have no value at all. I only wish to do the will of God on earth and to live my life according to His wishes and to align my desires and opinions according to His commandments

You don't have to approve of either ... you just need to make it clear that blasphemy is not an excuse for violence.

 

[Nick M]

I do not approve of murder but at the same time I do not approve of blasphemy.

Is it murder for the government to kill a blasphemer?