Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

way 2 go

Well-known member
Is it?

A man executed as punishment is eternally in the process of being executed? Or is the resulting consequence of his punishment eternal...
Bible does not say eternally executed ,

and your previous example was spanked which if you put the word "eternally" in front of spanked
then the duration of the spanking is determined by the word in front of it .
eternally spanked .

Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

the duration of the punishment or reward is determined by the word in front of it "eternal"

This is what is meant by the wages of sin is death...eternal
which kind of dead?
Mat 8:22 And Jesus said to him, "Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead."
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
But they don’t authentically love or exhibit compassion and empathy because the source of those things is corrupt. The Greek word that is the most common action word (poieo) comes from the base meaning quality, and is an imperative demanding to know the quality of the source OF the action (not merely that there is a certain action).

So the actions MUST be according to God’s standard as the source of the action. What you refer to can be a form of demonstrated righteousness Coram Mundo (before men), but not Coram Deo (before God). It’s all self-righteousness and self-justification.

And agape (love) is not phileo (love). The former (agape) means to have a disposition of the heart to know what is best for someone and what they need, and giving them that rather than what they desire. It’s not unconditional in the sense that it avoids this. And it’s an ontology first before it can be economies of action. The latter (phileo) is primarily concerned with finding common interest and merely avoiding anything but such things.

And one cannot show true compassion or empathy without being transformed in such a way as to begin with knowing the compassion and empathy of God the Father and of the Lord Jesus Christ relative to the Passion. Nothing else remotely compares, so is not really even on the continuum.



See above.



The Bible doesn’t “describe” love; it uses specific words with explicit lexical meanings that are not to be conflated or abrogated or diluted, etc.

That's very wordy and everything but it doesn't require belief in order to have compassion and altruism for other people. Take the Parable of the Good Samaritan. It works in more than one way but his actions are at the core, not his beliefs. While people of supposed faith are ignoring the injured man in the street, the Samaritan shows true love towards his fellow man, going above and beyond to care for his needs and wanting nothing in return. I've seen that in action with people who both believe and don't. I've seen a complete lack of such attributes in people who believe and don't as well.
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
That's very wordy and everything but it doesn't require belief in order to have compassion and altruism for other people. Take the Parable of the Good Samaritan. It works in more than one way but his actions are at the core, not his beliefs. While people of supposed faith are ignoring the injured man in the street, the Samaritan shows true love towards his fellow man, going above and beyond to care for his needs and wanting nothing in return. I've seen that in action with people who both believe and don't. I've seen a complete lack of such attributes in people who believe and don't as well.
:nono:

The Parable of the Good Samaritan
Luk 10:25 And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
Luk 10:26 He said to him, "What is written in the Law? How do you read it?"
Luk 10:27 And he answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself."
Luk 10:28 And he said to him, "You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live."


Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
:nono:

The Parable of the Good Samaritan
Luk 10:25 And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
Luk 10:26 He said to him, "What is written in the Law? How do you read it?"
Luk 10:27 And he answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself."
Luk 10:28 And he said to him, "You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live."


Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Do you actually debate or just post verses as if they in some way make your point for you? Not all of those who profess faith are looked favourably on and with this place there's plenty who'll label you a heretic depending on which particular brand of faith you ascribe to.

None of this negates the fact that people who don't believe are capable of altruism and selfless love towards their neighbour.
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
Do you actually debate or just post verses as if they in some way make your point for you? Not all of those who profess faith are looked favourably on and with this place there's plenty who'll label you a heretic depending on which particular brand of faith you ascribe to.
do you remember the thread title?

Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

None of this negates the fact that people who don't believe are capable of altruism and selfless love towards their neighbour.
It works in more than one way but his actions are at the core, not his beliefs.
you cherry picked part of "The Parable of the Good Samaritan" I just gave context that proved your
conclusion wrong

Luk 10:27 And he answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself."
Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
do you remember the thread title?

Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

Sure, and I've argued as to why it isn't along with plenty others who don't buy into such a monstrous doctrine.


you cherry picked part of "The Parable of the Good Samaritan" I just gave context that proved your
conclusion wrong

Luk 10:27 And he answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself."
Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

I didn't "cherry pick" any of it. I simply used it as an example of how love towards fellow man isn't necessitated by belief. Your atheist neighbour can be as selfless as any Christian.
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
That's very wordy and everything but it doesn't require belief in order to have compassion and altruism for other people. Take the Parable of the Good Samaritan. It works in more than one way but his actions are at the core, not his beliefs. While people of supposed faith are ignoring the injured man in the street, the Samaritan shows true love towards his fellow man, going above and beyond to care for his needs and wanting nothing in return. I've seen that in action with people who both believe and don't. I've seen a complete lack of such attributes in people who believe and don't as well.

And you either didn’t read or didn’t understand what I posted. Action is irrelevant. The source OF the action is the issue. Judging by outward appearances is never the means of determining the quality of the SOURCE OF the action.

Self-righteousness and self-justification versus God’s in changing the condition and state of being of man’s heart are the distinctions.

All your positions and views are based upon your own conceptualizations and deductions, etc. In aggregate, this is all your own standard or set of standards as “whats”. God’s standards include ALL “hows”, including the ones about yourself you can’t or don’t know.

I’ve seen plenty of unbelievers do acts that are “good” Coram Mundo (before men), but are in no way “good” Coram Deo (before God). But you presume the resulting actIONs from actING out of a sin state of being are somehow acceptable because they appear to be the same by your external scrutiny. They’re not.

Unbelievers are incapable of righteous actions because the source OF the action is corrupt. You’re presuming that there is something innately wrong/bad/evil about eating fruit in Eden, when there was only something wrong/bad/evil about eating fruit that was forbidden by God.

Unbelievers are unable to do anything from a source of their state of being that is according to God’s standard. Anything. This explanation is replete within the term hamartia (sin) itself. It’s inarguable (validly).

Everything that an unbeliever does is sin. Everything. And much that Believers do is sin, including worshipping and praying and anything else that is not of faith. That which is not of faith (as the source) is sin (the noun demonstrating state of being and condition).

This doesn’t mean that a Coram Mundo standard that emulates God’s standard isn’t preferable and more functional for the benefit of man than a random standard that denies God’s standard. But God’s standard is regarding BOTH internal character AND external conduct, not just the latter.

Self-determination and human reasoning according to one’s own standard is sin (the corrupted state of being). So all your subjective opinions like this are sin. They’re the result of your inward condition. You’re seeking to establish a standard that is relative to external activity alone.

You don’t understand sin or repentance or redemption or justification or grace or mercy or faith or hope or love. And from all these things you have determined a standard that you insist is righteous. Your standard falls short of God’s standard, just as all other men’s standards fall short of His standards, and for all the same reasons. The primary underlying reason is the source OF the standard, which is yourself according to your own heart and mind, etc.
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
And you either didn’t read or didn’t understand what I posted. Action is irrelevant. The source OF the action is the issue. Judging by outward appearances is never the means of determining the quality of the SOURCE OF the action.

Self-righteousness and self-justification versus God’s in changing the condition and state of being of man’s heart are the distinctions.

All your positions and views are based upon your own conceptualizations and deductions, etc. In aggregate, this is all your own standard or set of standards as “whats”. God’s standards include ALL “hows”, including the ones about yourself you can’t or don’t know.

I’ve seen plenty of unbelievers do acts that are “good” Coram Mundo (before men), but are in no way “good” Coram Deo (before God). But you presume the resulting actIONs from actING out of a sin state of being are somehow acceptable because they appear to be the same by your external scrutiny. They’re not.

Unbelievers are incapable of righteous actions because the source OF the action is corrupt. You’re presuming that there is something innately wrong/bad/evil about eating fruit in Eden, when there was only something wrong/bad/evil about eating fruit that was forbidden by God.

Unbelievers are unable to do anything from a source of their state of being that is according to God’s standard. Anything. This explanation is replete within the term hamartia (sin) itself. It’s inarguable (validly).

Everything that an unbeliever does is sin. Everything. And much that Believers do is sin, including worshipping and praying and anything else that is not of faith. That which is not of faith (as the source) is sin (the noun demonstrating state of being and condition).

This doesn’t mean that a Coram Mundo standard that emulates God’s standard isn’t preferable and more functional for the benefit of man than a random standard that denies God’s standard. But God’s standard is regarding BOTH internal character AND external conduct, not just the latter.

Self-determination and human reasoning according to one’s own standard is sin (the corrupted state of being). So all your subjective opinions like this are sin. They’re the result of your inward condition. You’re seeking to establish a standard that is relative to external activity alone.

You don’t understand sin or repentance or redemption or justification or grace or mercy or faith or hope or love. And from all these things you have determined a standard that you insist is righteous. Your standard falls short of God’s standard, just as all other men’s standards fall short of His standards, and for all the same reasons. The primary underlying reason is the source OF the standard, which is yourself according to your own heart and mind, etc.

No, I just recognize kindness and compassion when I see it without the need for extraneous, self righteous verbiage.

By all means, do pompously go on about how I don't understand things some more and how you do though.

:e4e:
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
They had nothing to gain from it and it was an inconvenience to them. It's pretty easy to spot genuine kindness and altruism frankly, for most people anyway.

Altruism, philanthropy, and other such things from “better” internal motivations are preferable to the many “worse” things that persons could do; but it’s still all about the source of the action/s being either of faith or sin. That which is not of faith is sin.

If you understood Hamartiology (Sinology), you wouldn’t say or even think all these things. But since that’s not the case, then you’ll keep advocating for some other standard than’s God’s standard. And that will always be sin. Nothing you’ve said or asked or argued is of faith. So it’s all sin.
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
No, I just recognize kindness and compassion when I see it ....

the "kindness and compassion" you recognize is a false kind, as Pneuma has been trying to explain to you

but it's the only kind you've ever known, it's the only kind you know now, it's the only kind you will ever know unless you turn to Christ, so in your limited thinking it's the only kind that exists

you're like a child

you are a child, pretending to drink milk when it's really watered down paste
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
No, I just recognize kindness and compassion when I see it without the need for extraneous, self righteous verbiage.

It’s not extraneous verbiage, and you don’t know what kindness and compassion are (Coram Deo). You literally don’t and can’t know, but you adamantly and vehemently and vociferously will continue to insist that you do and that your standard is the same as - or better than - God’s.

This is all sin for you. The state of being. The condition. And it’s the source for all you think, feel, say, believe, do, and are. You set your own subjective standard in all things based upon your own alleged observations of outward appearances relative to economies of action.

You also mistake niceness and other things for actual kindness and compassion. Kindness is an aspect of the fruit of the Spirit, and compassion begins with the standard of the Passion of the Lord. Anything else pales and is NOT the standard. But you will still contend otherwise, which will be both sin and unrighteous judgment, etc.
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
And you either didn’t read or didn’t understand what I posted. Action is irrelevant. The source OF the action is the issue. Judging by outward appearances is never the means of determining the quality of the SOURCE OF the action.

Self-righteousness and self-justification versus God’s in changing the condition and state of being of man’s heart are the distinctions.

All your positions and views are based upon your own conceptualizations and deductions, etc. In aggregate, this is all your own standard or set of standards as “whats”. God’s standards include ALL “hows”, including the ones about yourself you can’t or don’t know.

I’ve seen plenty of unbelievers do acts that are “good” Coram Mundo (before men), but are in no way “good” Coram Deo (before God). But you presume the resulting actIONs from actING out of a sin state of being are somehow acceptable because they appear to be the same by your external scrutiny. They’re not.

Unbelievers are incapable of righteous actions because the source OF the action is corrupt. You’re presuming that there is something innately wrong/bad/evil about eating fruit in Eden, when there was only something wrong/bad/evil about eating fruit that was forbidden by God.

Unbelievers are unable to do anything from a source of their state of being that is according to God’s standard. Anything. This explanation is replete within the term hamartia (sin) itself. It’s inarguable (validly).

Everything that an unbeliever does is sin. Everything. And much that Believers do is sin, including worshipping and praying and anything else that is not of faith. That which is not of faith (as the source) is sin (the noun demonstrating state of being and condition).

This doesn’t mean that a Coram Mundo standard that emulates God’s standard isn’t preferable and more functional for the benefit of man than a random standard that denies God’s standard. But God’s standard is regarding BOTH internal character AND external conduct, not just the latter.

Self-determination and human reasoning according to one’s own standard is sin (the corrupted state of being). So all your subjective opinions like this are sin. They’re the result of your inward condition. You’re seeking to establish a standard that is relative to external activity alone.

You don’t understand sin or repentance or redemption or justification or grace or mercy or faith or hope or love. And from all these things you have determined a standard that you insist is righteous. Your standard falls short of God’s standard, just as all other men’s standards fall short of His standards, and for all the same reasons. The primary underlying reason is the source OF the standard, which is yourself according to your own heart and mind, etc.

pearls! :thumb:

No, I just recognize kindness and compassion when I see it without the need for extraneous, self righteous verbiage.

By all means, do pompously go on about how I don't understand things some more and how you do though.

:e4e:


before swine :sigh:
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
the "kindness and compassion" you recognize is a false kind, as Pneuma has been trying to explain to you

but it's the only kind you've ever known, it's the only kind you know now, it's the only kind you will ever know unless you turn to Christ, so in your limited thinking it's the only kind that exists

you're like a child

you are a child, pretending to drink milk when it's really watered down paste

AND... Never knowing these things according to God’s standards is the torment suffered in the flames of the Lake of Fire for all everlasting.
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
It’s not extraneous verbiage, and you don’t know what kindness and compassion are (Coram Deo). You literally don’t and can’t know, but you adamantly and vehemently and vociferously will continue to insist that you do and that your standard is the same as - or better than - God’s.

This is all sin for you. The state of being. The condition. And it’s the source for all you think, feel, say, believe, do, and are. You set your own subjective standard in all things based upon your own alleged observations of outward appearances relative to economies of action.

You also mistake niceness and other things for actual kindness and compassion. Kindness is an aspect of the fruit of the Spirit, and compassion begins with the standard of the Passion of the Lord. Anything else pales and is NOT the standard. But you will still contend otherwise, which will be both sin and unrighteous judgment, etc.

Well, yes I do having being fortunate enough to have received it in moments in my life. You can erroneously presume as much as you will but having a grand lexicon at your disposal doesn't equate to truth. You come across as a grandiose but clanging cymbal frankly.
 
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