Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[TrumpTrainCA]

Nobody said otherwise.

The point here is that the example of punishment with eternal fire is a fire that GOES OUT after judgement and sentencing and punishment is executed.

Is why it is called a punishMENT and NOT a punishING.

Yours would have them already begging for water long BEFORE judgment day.



“The wages of sin is death forever torment with eternal fire...and before judgement day...”

“...that whosoever believeth shall not perish burn forever with eternal fire torment...prior the day of judgment even”

There...helped yours...

Your reading of the scriptures here is so wrong, and so bad, and so erroneous that its almost comical.

"According to the saints, the “fire” that will consume sinners at the coming of the Kingdom of God is the same “fire” that will shine with splendor in the saints. It is the “fire” of God’s love; the “fire” of God Himself who is Love. “For our God is a consuming fire” (Heb 12.29) who “dwells in unapproachable light” (1 Tim 6.16). For those who love God and who love all creation in Him, the “consuming fire” of God will be radiant bliss and unspeakable delight. For those who do not love God, and who do not love at all, this same “consuming fire” will be the cause of their “weeping” and their “gnashing of teeth.”

Thus it is the Church’s spiritual teaching that God does not punish man by some material fire or physical torment. God simply reveals Himself in the risen Lord Jesus in such a glorious way that no man can fail to behold His glory. It is the presence of God’s splendid glory and love that is the scourge of those who reject its radiant power and light.

link

 

[Arthur Brain]

Your reading of the scriptures here is so wrong, and so bad, and so erroneous that its almost comical.

"According to the saints, the “fire” that will consume sinners at the coming of the Kingdom of God is the same “fire” that will shine with splendor in the saints. It is the “fire” of God’s love; the “fire” of God Himself who is Love. “For our God is a consuming fire” (Heb 12.29) who “dwells in unapproachable light” (1 Tim 6.16). For those who love God and who love all creation in Him, the “consuming fire” of God will be radiant bliss and unspeakable delight. For those who do not love God, and who do not love at all, this same “consuming fire” will be the cause of their “weeping” and their “gnashing of teeth.”

Thus it is the Church’s spiritual teaching that God does not punish man by some material fire or physical torment. God simply reveals Himself in the risen Lord Jesus in such a glorious way that no man can fail to behold His glory. It is the presence of God’s splendid glory and love that is the scourge of those who reject its radiant power and light.

link

What about those who love, exhibit compassion and empathy but don't have belief?

 

[Aimiel]

What about those who love, exhibit compassion and empathy but don't have belief?

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

 

[Arthur Brain]

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

So, what exactly?

 

[Aimiel]

So, what exactly?

Jesus said that those you describe would die in their sins.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Jesus said that those you describe would die in their sins.

Everyone dies Aimiel. What does the Bible say about love?

 

[Aimiel]

God is Love.

 

[Arthur Brain]

God is Love.

Exactly, and how does the Bible describe love?

 

[Aimiel]

:sigh: :nightall:

:aimiel:

 

[Arthur Brain]

:sigh: :nightall:

:aimiel:

Erm, ok.

Maybe you'll come back to that...

 

[Aimiel]

:cow:

 

[ok doser]

cow

it's what's for dinner :chew:

 

[Aimiel]

We should give Arthur Brain BeanieBoy's old icon: :beanboy:

 

[Aimiel]

:aimiel:

 

[Arthur Brain]

We should give Arthur Brain BeanieBoy's old icon: :beanboy:

Well, if you want to act like childish loons then hey, sure. Knock yourselves out.

:idunno:

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

What about those who love, exhibit compassion and empathy but don't have belief?

But they don’t authentically love or exhibit compassion and empathy because the source of those things is corrupt. The Greek word that is the most common action word (poieo) comes from the base meaning quality, and is an imperative demanding to know the quality of the source OF the action (not merely that there is a certain action).

So the actions MUST be according to God’s standard as the source of the action. What you refer to can be a form of demonstrated righteousness Coram Mundo (before men), but not Coram Deo (before God). It’s all self-righteousness and self-justification.

And agape (love) is not phileo (love). The former (agape) means to have a disposition of the heart to know what is best for someone and what they need, and giving them that rather than what they desire. It’s not unconditional in the sense that it avoids this. And it’s an ontology first before it can be economies of action. The latter (phileo) is primarily concerned with finding common interest and merely avoiding anything but such things.

And one cannot show true compassion or empathy without being transformed in such a way as to begin with knowing the compassion and empathy of God the Father and of the Lord Jesus Christ relative to the Passion. Nothing else remotely compares, so is not really even on the continuum.

So, what exactly?

See above.

Exactly, and how does the Bible describe love?

The Bible doesn’t “describe” love; it uses specific words with explicit lexical meanings that are not to be conflated or abrogated or diluted, etc.

 

[clefty]

Your reading of the scriptures here is so wrong, and so bad, and so erroneous that its almost comical.

"According to the saints, the “fire” that will consume sinners at the coming of the Kingdom of God is the same “fire” that will shine with splendor in the saints. It is the “fire” of God’s love; the “fire” of God Himself who is Love. “For our God is a consuming fire” (Heb 12.29)

that which is consumed does not remain...

who “dwells in unapproachable light” (1 Tim 6.16).

this text makes clear ONLY ONE is immortal...yet here yours would have the ones in hell immortal too...

those who love God and who love all creation in Him, the “consuming fire” of God will be radiant bliss and unspeakable delight. For those who do not love God, and who do not love at all, this same “consuming fire” will be the cause of their “weeping” and their “gnashing of teeth.”

and cause of destruction...

Thus it is the Church’s spiritual teaching that God does not punish man by some material fire or physical torment.

that is news...

God simply reveals Himself in the risen Lord Jesus in such a glorious way that no man can fail to behold His glory. It is the presence of God’s splendid glory and love that is the scourge of those who reject its radiant power and light.

a scourging that is eternal necessitating one to be immortal too...but not to feel it physically...got it

link

hmmm...orthodox? Makes sense...they have a long tradition of using sensational imaginations and images idolatrously...

 

[clefty]

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Right...die...not remain being tormented for eternity...as sin will be removed...no more

 

[clefty]

But they don’t authentically love or exhibit compassion and empathy because the source of those things is corrupt. The Greek word that is the most common action word (poieo) comes from the base meaning quality, and is an imperative demanding to know the quality of the source OF the action (not merely that there is a certain action).

So the actions MUST be according to God’s standard as the source of the action. What you refer to can be a form of demonstrated righteousness Coram Mundo (before men), but not Coram Deo (before God). It’s all self-righteousness and self-justification.

And agape (love) is not phileo (love). The former (agape) means to have a disposition of the heart to know what is best for someone and what they need, and giving them that rather than what they desire. It’s not unconditional in the sense that it avoids this. And it’s an ontology first before it can be economies of action. The latter (phileo) is primarily concerned with finding common interest and merely avoiding anything but such things.

And one cannot show true compassion or empathy without being transformed in such a way as to begin with knowing the compassion and empathy of God the Father and of the Lord Jesus Christ relative to the Passion. Nothing else remotely compares, so is not really even on the continuum.



See above.



The Bible doesn’t “describe” love; it uses specific words with explicit lexical meanings that are not to be conflated or abrogated or diluted, etc.

The Bible might not need as many words as you...but it certainly does describe love...and a command we love others (enemies included)...as He loved us...

Feel free to read for yourself His examples of that love...

 

[clefty]

Sorry, but "punishment" and "punishing" are not mutually exclusive terms.

So...as a child getting spanked...you are still being spanked?...

and not just on this topic...lol

That childhood punishment however is concluded...you might still be sore...which explains a lot...