Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Lazy afternoon]

I see all of that spiritually, not that we rise up in these bodies of flesh from natural our graves once we've died. Do you understand the spiritual?

Our resurrection from the dead is the same as Christ's was--

1Co 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1Co 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
1Co 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Yes I understand the spiritual

my computer is playing up.

LA

 

[Cross Reference]

Learning how to reckon ourselves dead in Christ is the key to advancing towards a complete spiritual makeover in our disposition.

 

[freelight]

heavenly bodies?

heavenly bodies?

Our resurrection from the dead is the same as Christ's was--

1Co 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1Co 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
1Co 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

There is controversy over whether Paul meant a literal physical resurrection versus a spiritual rising, but he does seem to indicate a 'spiritual' resurrection,......not one of flesh and blood being 'magically' transformed. He further refers to Jesus (his cosmic Christ figure) as a 'life-giving spirit', and barely mentions anything about a literal physical human Jesus or his teachings as but a back-drop to hang or build his 'heavenly Christ' teaching. He said 'flesh and blood' cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven, and the physical body is 'sown' into the earth' and it rises a 'spiritual' body. Now we can hash out and argue over the exact constitution of the BODY that a soul is resurrected in, how 'physical' or 'spiritualized' it is,...but that's a matter of 'metaphysics'. In any case,.....that we die physically and are raised 'spiritually' may merely refer to our spirit-body rising from the tomb of the dead physical body, and entering into the Spirit-world. Consider metaphors, analogy and figurative speech here

 

[way 2 go]

I know, Way 2 Go, you'd agree with the devil himself if he promised to torture people. Oh wait, that's right, you are agreeing with the devil himself.

Genesis 3:4 KJV
(4) And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

I agree with the truth Jesus revealed, do you, :nono:


Consciousness of the departed,
fire for the unrepentant to stand in
not being burned up by the fire.


Luk 16:22**And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23**And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24**And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

 

[Rosenritter]

Can you see anything in all of that? How do we eat again off the tree of life?

That tree of life seems to be offered again in Revelation, when Christ returns and offers eternal life to all who thirst. Would you like the passage reference?

Revelation 22:1-3 KJV
(1) And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
(2) In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
(3) And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:


Revelation 22:12-14 KJV
(12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
(13) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
(14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

 

[Rosenritter]

Exactly, the resurrection hasn't already passed, it has carried on happening, it's happened every time those who are Gods people are raised with Christ! In those who have passed from death to life who have been quickened by the spirit who live not after the lusts of the flesh but after spirit and live by the will of God and deny themselves, bare their cross and follow Jesus.

Colossians 3

If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Ephesians 2

And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus

Ephesians 2 again

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others

Colossians 2

In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses

Romans 8

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you

John 6

It is the Spirit which quickens, the flesh profits nothing: the words which I have spoken unto you are spirit and are life.

Right I'm off to clean, a woman's work is never done

All of the references you made also make sense when speaking of a future event as a reality. When speaking with precision, Paul says that the dead shall be raised all at once, and in another place that the saints shall not be made perfect (perfected, raised immortal) without us.

Would it help to have the references? I won't bother if they will just meet the wall of denial.

 

[marhig]

Our resurrection from the dead is the same as Christ's was--

1Co 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1Co 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
1Co 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

If your dead, then you're made alive, you've risen. The natural death means nothing the flesh is just dust and it goes back to the dust. The spirit is life and goes back to God.

Jesus was on the mount talking to Moses and Elijah, they weren't asleep in a grave.

What about John the Baptist? He's already risen, and he had risen whilst he was still alive!

Matthew 11

Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see

And just a bit further down the chapter

Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he

And also, as I said before, Jesus said to the thief, today you will be with me in paradise, not that he'll be lying in a grave for thousands of years. But that he'll walk out of his body into paradise that day.

 

[marhig]

That tree of life seems to be offered again in Revelation, when Christ returns and offers eternal life to all who thirst. Would you like the passage reference?

Revelation 22:1-3 KJV
(1) And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
(2) In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
(3) And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:


Revelation 22:12-14 KJV
(12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
(13) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
(14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Christ has already returned, he's in his people.

 

[marhig]

All of the references you made also make sense when speaking of a future event as a reality. When speaking with precision, Paul says that the dead shall be raised all at once, and in another place that the saints shall not be made perfect (perfected, raised immortal) without us.

Would it help to have the references? I won't bother if they will just meet the wall of denial.

It's not that you are met with a wall of denial. I just see things differently to you.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

There is controversy over whether Paul meant a literal physical resurrection versus a spiritual rising, but he does seem to indicate a 'spiritual' resurrection,......not one of flesh and blood being 'magically' transformed. He further refers to Jesus (his cosmic Christ figure) as a 'life-giving spirit', and barely mentions anything about a literal physical human Jesus or his teachings as but a back-drop to hang or build his 'heavenly Christ' teaching. He said 'flesh and blood' cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven, and the physical body is 'sown' into the earth' and it rises a 'spiritual' body. Now we can hash out and argue over the exact constitution of the BODY that a soul is resurrected in, how 'physical' or 'spiritualized' it is,...but that's a matter of 'metaphysics'. In any case,.....that we die physically and are raised 'spiritually' may merely refer to our spirit-body rising from the tomb of the dead physical body, and entering into the Spirit-world. Consider metaphors, analogy and figurative speech here

Your lack of knowledge of the risen Lord is shown by your spiritualism.



LA

 

[Rosenritter]

I agree with the truth Jesus revealed, do you, :nono:


Consciousness of the departed,
fire for the unrepentant to stand in
not being burned up by the fire.


Luk 16:22**And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23**And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24**And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Apparently you haven't yet learned the meaning of the parable.

 

[Cross Reference]

Christ has already returned, he's in his people.

"Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:11 (KJV)

"Reckon" is the key word as it being that we are aspiring to with all diligence.

Jesus said He would ask the Father to send the comforter to His people. The comforter is the Holy Spirit who would teach them the ways of the Father by the life of Jesus Christ as the 'template' for their understanding. While this is going will Jesus be sitting at the right hand of God making intercession; pleading their cases for them. All of that is taking place, now.

Do you need more scripture?

[I reckon],"Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus." Philippians 3:12 (KJV)

"But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory." Mark 13:24-26 (KJV)

 

[marhig]

"Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:11 (KJV)

"Reckon" is the key word as it being thst we are aspiring to with all diligence.

Jesus said He would ask the Father to send the comforter to His people. The comforter is the Holy Spirit who would teach them the ways of the Father by the life of Jesus Christ as the 'template' for their understanding. While this is going will Jesus be sitting at the right hand of God making intercession; pleading their cases for them. All of that is taking place, now.

Do you need more scripture?

[I reckon],"Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus." Philippians 3:12 (KJV)

"But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory." Mark 13:24-26 (KJV)

Romans 8

For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.,For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.,

John 14

Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

I see that Christ is made manifest in our hearts by the holy spirit, the spirit of Christ is within us if we don't have the spirit of Christ, then we are not his. And if we have the spirit of Christ within, then we will be turning from sin as he did.

I don't see the clouds as natural clouds, do you?

I will answer you in a bit, I'm off out again. I never stop

 

[Cross Reference]

Romans 8

For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.,For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.,

John 14

Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

I see that Christ is made manifest in our hearts by the holy spirit, the spirit of Christ is within us if we don't have the spirit of Christ, then we are not his. And if we have the spirit of Christ within, then we will be turning from sin as he did.

I don't see the clouds as natural clouds, do you?

I will answer you in a bit, I'm off out again. I never stop

So what part of "reckoning" diminishes what you believe?

 

[way 2 go]

Apparently you haven't yet learned the meaning of the parable.

Apparently you think Jesus lied

show me where ?


Consciousness of the departed,
fire for the unrepentant to stand in
not being burned up by the fire.


Luk 16:22**And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23**And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24**And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

 

[way 2 go]

Apparently you haven't yet learned the meaning of the parable.

reminder : Jesus spoke of the kingdom of heaven
in parables

Mat 13:10**And the disciples said to Him, Why do You speak to them in parables?
Mat 13:11**He answered and said to them, Because it is given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of Heaven, but it is not given to them.

 

[freelight]

U got it,.....Paul taught a spiritual resurrection.......

U got it,.....Paul taught a spiritual resurrection.......

Your lack of knowledge of the risen Lord is shown by your spiritualism.



LA

Hi LA

I think the 'spiritualist' view is more in sync with Paul's theology about the resurrection. Paul was more of a spiritualist with a gnostic bent, and his 'gospel' was essentially a 'mystery-religion' encapsulation of a spiritual Christ-figure who not only provides an atonement for sin, but is a spirit that indwells his believers as well, and gives them a spiritual resurrection. His beleivers are all part of a mystical Christ-body.

Note his sermon to the Corinthians in ch. 15....the resurrection body is spiritual, while the physical body is sown (buried) in the ground. He makes a clear dual distinction here, in line with the greek philosophical understanding. Christ has become a what? a life-giving spirit. Christ dwells where? IN YOU. A flesh and blood body no matter how 'spiritualized' cannot indwell a human soul or body, but apparently the Jesus Christ he preached could be IN YOU. So, you've got a spiritualist gospel, with gnostic mystery-religion over-tones, and definitely a spiritual resurrection. When you physically die, your material body is buried and returns to dust,..while the soul is resurrected (it rises) with its spiritual body(form) and enters into the spirit-world. All souls then are resurrected this way via the natural course of physical death. Yes, this is a purely spiritualist point of view,...there is no physical resurrection as it were,...the material body is wholly discarded and NOT taken up again (that is, unless a soul is reincarnated )

Don't forget, that no matter how physical or spiritual you assume any-BODY to be,....you still reap what you sow ! - the law of karma is still in effect as long as there is 'action' of any kind and you are a conscious responsible being. So, you make your own 'heaven' or 'hell', by your own choice and actions. Isnt this so? How is it otherwise? This is universal law, unless you can wholly transcend the law of karma, by being pure love itself....which transcends and absolves all sin. In pure love there is no sin....so no karma, except the fruit of right action fulfilling itself thru its own perfection. But perhaps I digress

 

[Rosenritter]

Romans 8

For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.,For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.,

John 14

Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

I see that Christ is made manifest in our hearts by the holy spirit, the spirit of Christ is within us if we don't have the spirit of Christ, then we are not his. And if we have the spirit of Christ within, then we will be turning from sin as he did.

I don't see the clouds as natural clouds, do you?

I will answer you in a bit, I'm off out again. I never stop

Yes, when "he cometh in clouds" those are the clouds in the sky. Is he describing signs in the sky in that passage?

Matthew 24:29-30 KJV
(29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
(30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Mark 13:24-26 KJV
(24) But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
(25) And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
(26) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 KJV
(16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I'm not sure how anyone could read those passages and not come to the conclusion that there's something real going on in the sky that everyone can see with this event. Sun, stars, moon, and clouds, signs in heaven. It says that the tribes of the earth shall see it and mourn. Paul goes so far to say that we shall rise up to meet him in the air.

So wherever these clouds are, they are the type that are surrounded by air.

 

[Rosenritter]

So peaceful now with Way 2 Go on the ignore list. I can do that now that I have my computer stations set up again. No need to play with spam-bots with the IQ of an addled hamster.