marhig
Well-known member
I'm sure many that listened thought the same when Jesus told the parable of the sower who went out to sow!
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
Rosenritter
New member
Hi LA
I think the 'spiritualist' view is more in sync with Paul's theology about the resurrection. Paul was more of a spiritualist with a gnostic bent, and his 'gospel' was essentially a 'mystery-religion' encapsulation of a spiritual Christ-figure who not only provides an atonement for sin, but is a spirit that indwells his believers as well, and gives them a spiritual resurrection. His beleivers are all part of a mystical Christ-body.
Note his sermon to the Corinthians in ch. 15....the resurrection body is spiritual, while the physical body is sown (buried) in the ground. He makes a clear dual distinction here, in line with the greek philosophical understanding. Christ has become a what? a life-giving spirit. Christ dwells where? IN YOU. A flesh and blood body no matter how 'spiritualized' cannot indwell a human soul or body, but apparently the Jesus Christ he preached could be IN YOU. So, you've got a spiritualist gospel, with gnostic mystery-religion over-tones, and definitely a spiritual resurrection. When you physically die, your material body is buried and returns to dust,..while the soul is resurrected (it rises) with its spiritual body(form) and enters into the spirit-world. All souls then are resurrected this way via the natural course of physical death. Yes, this is a purely spiritualist point of view,...there is no physical resurrection as it were,...the material body is wholly discarded and NOT taken up again (that is, unless a soul is reincarnated)
Don't forget, that no matter how physical or spiritual you assume any-BODY to be,....you still reap what you sow ! - the law of karma is still in effect as long as there is 'action' of any kind and you are a conscious responsible being. So, you make your own 'heaven' or 'hell', by your own choice and actions. Isnt this so? How is it otherwise? This is universal law, unless you can wholly transcend the law of karma, by being pure love itself....which transcends and absolves all sin. In pure love there is no sin....so no karma, except the fruit of right action fulfilling itself thru its own perfection. But perhaps I digress
Read Paul a little more closely. He does not say that the body dies and you waft off as a spirit somewhere. He says that when the saints are resurrected, they shall be changed into an incorruptible form which he calls a spiritual body. Not "spirit" but a "spiritual body" and he says that this does not happen until Jesus returns and the dead are raised, all at once. So much all at once that there are two divisions, those that were dead all this time and those that were alive when Jesus returns and they see this happen. They are changed in the next moment to meet them.
If you want to know what a "spiritual body" is like, then look at Jesus when he was raised. He was able to walk among people, talk to them, eat their food, and be touched. But he also was able to appear in the midst of them unannounced, appear in another form that they did not immediately recognize, and vanish when he chose.
Rosenritter
New member
I think that there is no set of words that the Bible could possibly contain that you would accept. Jesus couldn't have described a literal event more forcibly than that.
marhig
Well-known member
As I said I see it differently than you, God is spirit and the Bible has deeper meanings. For example, have you ever seen a tree of knowledge of good and evil? This isn't a natural tree! Nor is a tree of life, when we bare fruits we don't grow apples and oranges from our arms, we're not literal branches, only because some things are explained it in the Bible, you know what they mean, God reveals the rest to us bit by bit when we're ready.
I don't see Jesus coming in a cloud as floating out of the sky, he comes in the clouds of heaven, and heaven isn't in the sky and I don't see a cloud to be a natural cloud.
I don't see the pillar of cloud and the pillar of fire at the time of Moses as natural fire and a natural cloud.
And when it says in the Bible about the fires of hell, and then Gods consuming fire, I don't see those as natural either.
If you burn a natural fire you die, but if you burn in a fire of hell you don't, you still live. There is a natural and there is a spiritual, we are natural and God is spirit. We see with the natural eye, God opens our understanding by the spirit.
And I agree with freelight, we leave this body behind and as our spirit leaves it behind, and we walk straight out alive to God. I don't believe that a holy loving God would leave us rotting dead in the ground, Elijah is alive, and Moses is alive, we know this because they were on the mount with Jesus. And John was risen in his lifetime. God's people and his prophets are still walking among us, reaching into our hearts and teaching us, they are ministering spirits, they're not somewhere floating in the sky and neither is heaven up there either.
marhig
Well-known member
When my brother died, I nearly broke down, but God strengthened me, without God I'd never have been able to get through that. And God has blessed me showed me that my brother lives, I know his spirit isn't lying in a grave, he's alive and with God.
When he died, my mum told me this poem, I also see God in everything like this too, I see him everywhere!
Do not stand at my grave and weep
I am not there. I do not sleep.
I am a thousand winds that blow.
I am the diamond glints on snow.
I am the sunlight on ripened grain.
I am the gentle autumn rain.
When you awaken in the morning's hush
I am the swift uplifting rush
Of quiet birds in circled flight.
I am the soft stars that shine at night.
Do not stand at my grave and cry;
I am not there. I did not die.
When he died, my mum told me this poem, I also see God in everything like this too, I see him everywhere!
Do not stand at my grave and weep
I am not there. I do not sleep.
I am a thousand winds that blow.
I am the diamond glints on snow.
I am the sunlight on ripened grain.
I am the gentle autumn rain.
When you awaken in the morning's hush
I am the swift uplifting rush
Of quiet birds in circled flight.
I am the soft stars that shine at night.
Do not stand at my grave and cry;
I am not there. I did not die.
Cross Reference
New member
Beware of over spiritualizing the written word. Faith is born there.
Cross Reference
New member
Torture was never a promise, screwup. God gave you away of escaping your impending desolation. Why don't you take Him up on His provision? . . Or should I guess?
marhig
Well-known member
Jesus said that all would be fulfilled in that generation, and I believe him. There is a natural and a spiritual, I believe that spiritually all that Jesus said would happen has. I do also believe that there will be a natural end of the world, but I leave all that in Gods hands and I don't worry about it, I just want to get my heart right before him, and bring him to those around me with the hope that they will believe.
I don't believe that we lie in the ground dead and rotting, it's clear in the Bible that those who died went straight out of this body, even in the story of the rich man and Lazarus that everyone here has been discussing shows us this. They didn't lie in their flesh in a grave, they went to where God put them. And when Jesus told a man to follow him, he said he had to bury his father, Jesus said, let the dead bury the dead, but go you and preach the kingdom of God, his word is life, this flesh is death and it is just temporary, he wants to bring us back to God before leave this body he's not worried about our flesh but about our spirit.
When Stephen was dying, he prayed and he said Lord Jesus, receive my spirit, he knew he wasn't going to stay in a grave.
I believe we leave this body when we die and we are free, and God has a place for all of us, nothing I am saying should ruin the faith of anyone, the spirit brings life, and the love of God in the heart is more fulfilling than anything this world can offer. And to know that we walk out of this body alive lifts my heart more than believing that I'm going to lie rotting in a grave.
If we truly belong to Christ. Then on the day we die i believe, that we go to paradise to be with him.
Cross Reference
New member
I do as well and Jesus said all would be fulfilled in the generation in which it begins to take place and all of that generation will witness it taking place. Like I said, don't spiritualize beyond what is given that you miss the understanding of the prophetic."For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. . . . For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Matthew 24:7-8,21-22 (KJV)
Here is an example of what I mean:
The Prophecy
"For dogs encompass me; a company of evildoers encircles me; they have pierced my hands and feet— . . ." Psalm 22:16 (ESV/KJV) AND here: " . . . . and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn." Zechariah 12:10 (KJV)
The Fulfillment
"But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water. He who saw it has borne witness—his testimony is true, and he knows that he is telling the truth—that you also may believe. For these things took place that the Scripture might be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken.”
37 And again another Scripture says, “They will look on him whom they have pierced.” John 19:34-37 (ESV)
And then there is this fulfillment yet to happen:
"Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.
8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Revelation 1:7-8 (ESV)
I don't question your relationship with Jesus Christ but your understanding of the prophetic concerning Him in what He spoke of re the completness of the salvation of the redeemed insofar as there being a "spiritual resurrection" and a future, "physical one". Don't get the two confused for a reasons that lead to "un-learned presumption"..
Cross Reference
New member
It has not. Read Matt 24 where Jesus speaks to His Disciples re the end of this age.
Again, Reaad Matthew 24.
I agree. But Jesus told US to be on guard lest we let our guard down when the temptation comes and miss out on being of the "very elect" and quite possibly of the "elect" who were careless in their relationship with Jesus.
"Dust to dust and ashes to ashes". That is the way of the human body because of Adam's transgression.
When one dies his soul departs to where he it is permitted to resided. If in Christ then the Blood of Jesus will permit him into paradise, where Paul was cught up to witness what God has prepared for thos who love Him. That same paradise which was the bosom of Abraham, the abode of the righteous dead; captives who Jesus set free when he descended into the grave: "Then Jacob tore his garments and put sackcloth on his loins and mourned for his son many days. All his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted and said, “No, I shall go down to Sheol to my son, mourning.” Thus his father wept for him." Genesis 37:34-35 (ESV)
And we have that same knowledge as Stephen, don't we? . . . or do we? Who is "we" is the question that must be answered by everyone who claims the Name of Jesus Christ.
Indeed, we are if we are 'truly' in Christ.
Why do you care so much about the "ashes" of your body when assurance of receiving a glorified one and in that day of the Lord when we see Him John says we will be like Him? If our eternal soul, which is US, is in paradise, why the question except there is more to come that words cannot express nor has such 'glorified thinking' entered into the heart of those no yet "glorified"? [see 1John3:2] I don't believe we are there yet, do you? . .
Amen! However, paradise is NOT the end.
Cross Reference
New member
A time for "spiritualizing" here:
It is the "soul" of man that cannot die a physical death,. . . EVER!
Spiritual in the sense a man's soul cannot be seen, only witnessed when in his physical body. When the body dies, the soul moves on to where it can only reside dependent soley upon IT's relationship with God when it was in the body that was prepared for it, quits.
First the Natural then the Spiritual:
"Beloved, now are we the ["reckoned natural"] sons of God, and [BUT] it doth not yet [naturally] appear what we shall be: but we know [Spiritually] that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him [Naturally Glorified] as he [now] is." 1 John 3:2 (KJV)
[emphasis mine]
Last edited:
way 2 go
Well-known member
its funny Rosenritter is one of those people
who want the bible to state things exactly
how he wants it or he won't believe
like the trinity ,which he denies.
so I show him the bible saying exactly what I claim
consciousness of the departed, which he denies.
fire for the unrepentant to stand in, which he denies.
not being burned up by the fire, which he denies.
Luk 16:22**And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23**And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24**And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
he had no answer and resorted to ad hominem
but he resisted calling Jesus a liar but hinted at it.
Rosenritter had to put me on ignore which is sad
but since he is not interested in truth ,
good for both of us.
Rosenritter and the hell deniers
can not refute Luke 16:19-31
remember
Jesus spoke of the kingdom of heaven
in parables Mat 13:10-11
who want the bible to state things exactly
how he wants it or he won't believe
like the trinity ,which he denies.
so I show him the bible saying exactly what I claim
consciousness of the departed, which he denies.
fire for the unrepentant to stand in, which he denies.
not being burned up by the fire, which he denies.
Luk 16:22**And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23**And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24**And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
he had no answer and resorted to ad hominem
but he resisted calling Jesus a liar but hinted at it.
Rosenritter had to put me on ignore which is sad
but since he is not interested in truth ,
good for both of us.
Rosenritter and the hell deniers
can not refute Luke 16:19-31
remember
Jesus spoke of the kingdom of heaven
in parables Mat 13:10-11
marhig
Well-known member
It says in the Bible that all who pierced him shall see him, so it was the generation in which Jesus was in at the time. Jesus said this generation shall not pass until all will be fulfilled. He wasn't talking about the thousands of years into the future.
You tell me not to spiritualise further than what is given, but that's not what Jesus says. Jesus said those who have ears to hear, hear. And those who have ears to hear listen to what the spirit says to the churches. There are deeper meanings in the scriptures and the spirit gives understanding to those who are to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, to all different degrees as God gives it to them.
As I said, there is a natural and there is a spiritual, there is also a natural coming and a spiritual coming.
And still, it doesn't say that Jesus comes on a cloud from the sky, it says that Jesus comes in clouds of heaven and with clouds of heaven and heaven isn't in the sky.
By the way, the elders and scribe's of the Jews saw the apostles as unlearned and ignorant, so I'm in good company! And I'm glad you don't question my relationship with Jesus, because only God can do that with any of us. Because only God knows our hearts.
marhig
Well-known member
The soul can die
Ezekiel 18
As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Also
Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. The soul that sinneth, it shall die
It's the spirit that never dies, I've never seen that the spirit dies in the scriptures in any way. The spirit goes back to God who gave it.
Your refusal to reason is your error.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Do you not see that the rich man was buried in verse 22, but then is said to be in torments in verse 23 .
How do you figure he got from the grave to hell fire?
Also,
Do you think Lazarus went straight to Abrahams bosom when he died?
Why was it necessary for the angels to carry him? and when does the text say that occurred?
LA
Cross Reference
New member
And if the same spirit that raised Jesus from the dead DOES NOT dwell in you, WHAT? Is not the body [ashes] not resurrected in that day as the scriptures speak of? Unto what is it raised, life or death? What is death now since man, his body, can only die once? And when it is raised will it not again be a 'living' soul? But, where can it only reside?
You cannot use one spurious verse of scripture, out of context, and expect to be takn seriously.
God has a soul! Now what will you do with that, dismiss it as being irrelevant?
You are a soul, which makes you a little god and you have a body, just like Jesus and the two are held together by your spirit which belongs to God who gave it to you which made you a "living, earthbound, soul".
The "Breath of Life" secured an eternal existence for the soul of man. Your spirit will return to God when your body dies. Your soul, your mind, will and emotions, being independent of both irrespective of what that scripture states i.e., "all souls are mine", for from both the body and spirit does the soul rely upon for its 'earthbound' existence.
The soul cannot not die of itself nor can it be destroyed if for no other reason that its created, "god-ship". It is who you are and will be merely seperated from the "land of the living", those yet breathing upon earth awaiting their turn.
If it was as you suppose, there could be no resurrection. A whole new creation would have to happen and we know that is NOT in the plan of God for the souls which have been born again.
Last edited:
marhig
Well-known member
I personally don't believe that we die, I believe that we go on to either heaven or hell. But you are the one that told me that I shouldn't over spiritualise, so if you're going by the Bible then the soul dies! Personally I believe that in Ezekiel that God is talking about being separated from him because of sin, and being dead in sin and not alive to God. This I believe is the only way we die, this is to be spiritually dead, when we are separated from the spirit of God.
But then again, God can do what he wants, we don't know everything. And I'm only dust, I just leave all that in his hands.
God does have a soul, but he's pure and we grieve him when we sin. And if we wilfully sin after knowing God and Christ, then we are in danger of being dead to him again through living by the lusts of our flesh.
Cross Reference
New member
way 2 go
Well-known member
so you are going to tell me where Jesus lied ?
consciousness of the departed, true
it is his spirit which is why he is
not being burned up by the fire
Are you saying Jesus lied here
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
yes, when Lazarus died he was carried to Abraham's side immediately
Luk 16:26**And besides all this, there is a great chasm fixed between you and us; so that they desiring to pass from here to you cannot, nor can they pass over to us from there.
where did Jesus lie
consciousness of the departed
fire for the unrepentant to stand in
not being burned up by the fire