Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Rosenritter]

Babies of the wicked who die before weaning can not be given eternal life, or be cast into hellfire.

Such would be as abhorrent as ECT.

Have you considered that?

LA

I just was re-reading this, and I have to ask. "Babies who die before weaning?" I have some questions.

1) How did you come up with that? Seriously, chapter and verse please?

2) How much does the child have to be weaned before they can be cast into hell fire or given eternal life? does that mean if they can eat any food it counts as weaned, or does it mean fully weaned?

3) If a mother runs the odds of her child being wicked (say she figures that 70% of all adults go to hell) can she purposely avoid weaning her child to keep it away from God's judgment?

You asked me to consider your proposal, so I'm considering it. Got any answers for those?

 

[Rosenritter]

Yep, my former challenge and questioning of such insanity, especially by a loving God, if by his own power he detains and confines souls to a state of eternal torment and suffering (from which there is no relief or rememdy). Such is so illogical and abhorrant to any sensible person as to inspire a wholesale rejection of such a 'god' (and here we would have to further explore the philosophical and moral aspects of such, and 'free will'.

For newbies to the thread interested in my commentary on the subject go here (post links to former dialogue in this and other threads, and other resource links).

I continue to maintain that while this particular discussion is about whether ECT is "biblical" (a somewhat arbitrary term anyone can slap on their favorite 'doctrine'), I advocate research into all religious, philosophic and scientific schools and traditions on the subject, which is at last finally evaluated and considered by one's own conscience, reason, logic and spiritual intelligence. If a so called 'religious passage' or 'scripture' is inimical to such, it is to be re-evaluated and/or rejected. All things must at last pass by one's 'conscience' (the law of God written in one's own heart/soul) and the Spirit of truth (whose wisdom concurs with the harmony of all laws and principles of existence).

I've also brought up the law of karma (or 'law of compensation') as it factors into the equation here, since all actions have their following consequences, so this law of 'sowing and reaping' is integral here in the determining of conditions and destinies. There is much more to consider than just a 'black n white' duality of 'heaven' or 'hell', since by relativity and conditioning there are a multiplicity of levels, degrees and gradations. We have a fun go at 'karma' here (Way 2 go started this thread to challenge my commentaries on karma, so I respond).

In-joy!

I had no idea Way 2 Go started this thread. No wonder he keeps hanging around here. I'd assumed it was Timotheos.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

I just was re-reading this, and I have to ask. "Babies who die before weaning?" I have some questions.

1) How did you come up with that? Seriously, chapter and verse please?

2) How much does the child have to be weaned before they can be cast into hell fire or given eternal life? does that mean if they can eat any food it counts as weaned, or does it mean fully weaned?

3) If a mother runs the odds of her child being wicked (say she figures that 70% of all adults go to hell) can she purposely avoid weaning her child to keep it away from God's judgment?

You asked me to consider your proposal, so I'm considering it. Got any answers for those?

Do not nit pick.


1Ki 14:10 Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam, and will cut off from Jeroboam him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel, and will take away the remnant of the house of Jeroboam, as a man taketh away dung, till it be all gone.
1Ki 14:11 Him that dieth of Jeroboam in the city shall the dogs eat; and him that dieth in the field shall the fowls of the air eat: for the LORD hath spoken it.
1Ki 14:12 Arise thou therefore, get thee to thine own house: and when thy feet enter into the city, the child shall die.
1Ki 14:13 And all Israel shall mourn for him, and bury him: for he only of Jeroboam shall come to the grave, because in him there is found some good thing toward the LORD God of Israel in the house of Jeroboam.

God made a distinction, and all of the other children suffered with the wicked parents.

All the children of the wicked before the flood were accounted as being of the wicked and perished.

Obviously the child spared from the suffering to come, was because there was something of good in him, and babies have no ability to choose one way or the other, so they are lost with the lost parents.

LA

 

[Rosenritter]

Do not nit pick.


1Ki 14:10 Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam, and will cut off from Jeroboam him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel, and will take away the remnant of the house of Jeroboam, as a man taketh away dung, till it be all gone.
1Ki 14:11 Him that dieth of Jeroboam in the city shall the dogs eat; and him that dieth in the field shall the fowls of the air eat: for the LORD hath spoken it.
1Ki 14:12 Arise thou therefore, get thee to thine own house: and when thy feet enter into the city, the child shall die.
1Ki 14:13 And all Israel shall mourn for him, and bury him: for he only of Jeroboam shall come to the grave, because in him there is found some good thing toward the LORD God of Israel in the house of Jeroboam.

God made a distinction, and all of the other children suffered with the wicked parents.

All the children of the wicked before the flood were accounted as being of the wicked and perished.

Obviously the child spared from the suffering to come, was because there was something of good in him, and babies have no ability to choose one way or the other, so they are lost with the lost parents.

LA

Help me out here, I can't see what you're trying to say with your reference to Jeroboam. How did that passage possibly establish that "babies who die before weaning" neither descend to hell or can be granted eternal life?

Yes, children died in the flood, but they died the same death as everyone else. The weaned child and the child that ate solid food died the same death. What you are saying is not only failing to prove your point, it's starting to provide material against it.

The initial point you brought for consideration was that infants (or young children of an indeterminate age?) would not be raised in the resurrection at the last day. I haven't seen support for that assertion yet, but if you have something I would like to see it.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Help me out here, I can't see what you're trying to say with your reference to Jeroboam. How did that passage possibly establish that "babies who die before weaning" neither descend to hell or can be granted eternal life?

Yes, children died in the flood, but they died the same death as everyone else. The weaned child and the child that ate solid food died the same death. What you are saying is not only failing to prove your point, it's starting to provide material against it.

The initial point you brought for consideration was that infants (or young children of an indeterminate age?) would not be raised in the resurrection at the last day. I haven't seen support for that assertion yet, but if you have something I would like to see it.

Mat 25 shows the separation of the sheep and goats, The goats go to hell.

Do you think the babies of the goats will be given to the sheep?

The verses in my last post proved my point.

LA

 

[marhig]

A baby is innocent, it has never sinned. Being in sinful flesh doesn't mean the child has sinned, just that as it grows it will suffer the temptation to sin. It's bad enough that anyone would judge another as going hell, never mind judging a child and even an innocent baby as hellbound!

Jesus didn't see children in the same way!

Matthew 18:1

At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven

Matthew 19:14

But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Cross Reference]

Here is understanding:

"Behold, these are the ungodly, who prosper in the world; they increase in riches. . . . . . . Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction. How are they brought into desolation, as in a moment! they are utterly consumed with terrors." Psalm 73:12,18-19 (KJV)

[Eternal]Desolation:
A state of complete emptiness or destruction: the stony desolation of the desert; anguished misery or loneliness: in choked desolation.

Factor in the word "desolation" and maybe now reconsider the account of the "rich man and Lazarus" as a being a fact.

 

[freelight]

I had no idea Way 2 Go started this thread. No wonder he keeps hanging around here. I'd assumed it was Timotheos.

If you look in direct context, the link I provided just before, I was referring to the 'Christianity vs karma' thread. Timotheos did creat this thread here

 

[Rosenritter]

Mat 25 shows the separation of the sheep and goats, The goats go to hell.

Do you think the babies of the goats will be given to the sheep?

The verses in my last post proved my point.

LA

I haven't seen any point proved, and I haven't seen clear scripture to support your suggestions. You did raise a question. Do I think the babies of the goats will be given to the sheep?

1) They might. I don't see any limitations on a time limit for the judgment. There might be plenty of time for a child to age naturally.
2) Another possibility is that infants will be raised as adults. Adam was created as an adult.

I can't say for certain because I don't have clear scripture to support either of those answers, but neither do I know of scripture to the contrary.

 

[Rosenritter]

A baby is innocent, it has never sinned. Being in sinful flesh doesn't mean the child has sinned, just that as it grows it will suffer the temptation to sin. It's bad enough that anyone would judge another as going hell, never mind judging a child and even an innocent baby as hellbound!

Jesus didn't see children in the same way!

Matthew 18:1

At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven

Matthew 19:14

But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus said "as a little child" in terms of analogy. It doesn't literally mean children are perfect or without sin. Children are sinful by nature. We, as humans, are imperfect and have the capacity for sin.

Genesis 8:21 KJV
(21) And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.


Just to be clear, salvation isn't about being "earned" by scoring zero "sin points" during your life. If that was the case, abortion would be our savior instead of Jesus Christ. The issue is not the amount of "sin points" against us, but whether we learn to love and are willing to give ourselves to our God in faith, whether we will repent of our sinful nature and be willing to be changed. A child hasn't had opportunity to do that yet.

Jesus was using one good aspect of "children" (and not all children demonstrate that aspect) and saying that we needed to apply that childlike trust towards Him, that we needed to be able to keep that aspect and apply that towards repentance and eternal life. A child is not saved and has not earned salvation simply by not having demonstrated his sinful nature yet.

Is there more than one path to salvation? Is it through youth or lack of days, or is it through Jesus Christ?

 

[Rosenritter]

Here is understanding:

"Behold, these are the ungodly, who prosper in the world; they increase in riches. . . . . . . Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction. How are they brought into desolation, as in a moment! they are utterly consumed with terrors." Psalm 73:12,18-19 (KJV)

[Eternal]Desolation:
A state of complete emptiness or destruction: the stony desolation of the desert; anguished misery or loneliness: in choked desolation.

Factor in the word "desolation" and maybe now reconsider the account of the "rich man and Lazarus" as a being a fact.

It took me a minute to realize that that was your attempt at a proof... and a rather obscure one, at that. Where did you pull up your definition of desolation from? And did you notice that the desolation precedes being consumed, rather than following it? If I were to apply your passage in the context you suggest, it actually contradicts your intended proof.

Here, I'll show you how it's done. Find something that demands the context and speaks clearly. Like this:

Job 3:11-22 KJV
(11) Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?
(12) Why did the knees prevent me? or why the breasts that I should suck?
(13) For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest,
(14) With kings and counsellors of the earth, which built desolate places for themselves;
(15) Or with princes that had gold, who filled their houses with silver:
(16) Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never saw light.
(17) There the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest.
(18) There the prisoners rest together; they hear not the voice of the oppressor.
(19) The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master.
(20) Wherefore is light given to him that is in misery, and life unto the bitter in soul;
(21) Which long for death, but it cometh not; and dig for it more than for hid treasures;
(22) Which rejoice exceedingly, and are glad, when they can find the grave?


God has spoken through his prophet Job. The dead are at rest, and free from oppression. Give up peddling your pathetic gospel of sadism. The truth is so much better.

 

[Cross Reference]

It took me a minute to realize that that was your attempt at a proof... and a rather obscure one, at that. Where did you pull up your definition of desolation from? And did you notice that the desolation precedes being consumed, rather than following it? If I were to apply your passage in the context you suggest, it actually contradicts your intended proof.

Here, I'll show you how it's done. Find something that demands the context and speaks clearly. Like this:

Job 3:11-22 KJV
(11) Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?
(12) Why did the knees prevent me? or why the breasts that I should suck?
(13) For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest,
(14) With kings and counsellors of the earth, which built desolate places for themselves;
(15) Or with princes that had gold, who filled their houses with silver:
(16) Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never saw light.
(17) There the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest.
(18) There the prisoners rest together; they hear not the voice of the oppressor.
(19) The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master.
(20) Wherefore is light given to him that is in misery, and life unto the bitter in soul;
(21) Which long for death, but it cometh not; and dig for it more than for hid treasures;
(22) Which rejoice exceedingly, and are glad, when they can find the grave?


God has spoken through his prophet Job. The dead are at rest, and free from oppression. Give up peddling your pathetic gospel of sadism. The truth is so much better.

The air would be so much more enjoyable to breath if you got some.

 

[Rosenritter]

The air would be so much more enjoyable to breath if you got some.

If you have nothing sensible to say, then come back with an idiotic one-liner that says nothing...

 

[Cross Reference]

If you have nothing sensible to say, then come back with an idiotic one-liner that says nothing...

There is NOTHING to respond to. Your crackers have no cheese on them . . . nor salt.

 

[way 2 go]

Here is understanding:

"Behold, these are the ungodly, who prosper in the world; they increase in riches. . . . . . . Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction. How are they brought into desolation, as in a moment! they are utterly consumed with terrors." Psalm 73:12,18-19 (KJV)

[Eternal]Desolation:
A state of complete emptiness or destruction: the stony desolation of the desert; anguished misery or loneliness: in choked desolation.

Factor in the word "desolation" and maybe now reconsider the account of the "rich man and Lazarus" as a being a fact.

desolation is a word for hell.


tormented and sorrowing use the same word here : odunaō

Luk 16:25**But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.G3600

Act 20:38**Sorrowing G3600 most of all for the words which he spake, that they should see his face no more.

G3600
ὀδυνάω
odunaō
od-oo-nah'-o
From G3601; to grieve: - sorrow, torment.

considering Jesus never lied conscious sorrow
in desolation is real.

 

[Rosenritter]

desolation is a word for hell.


tormented and sorrowing use the same word here : odunaō

Luk 16:25**But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.G3600

Act 20:38**Sorrowing G3600 most of all for the words which he spake, that they should see his face no more.

G3600
ὀδυνάω
odunaō
od-oo-nah'-o
From G3601; to grieve: - sorrow, torment.

considering Jesus never lied conscious sorrow
in desolation is real.

Wow, you just blew your own argument out of the water there. I didn't have to do anything. So Assos was in hell?

Acts 20:36-38 KJV
(36) And when he had thus spoken, he kneeled down, and prayed with them all.
(37) And they all wept sore, and fell on Paul's neck, and kissed him,
(38) Sorrowing most of all for the words which he spake, that they should see his face no more. And they accompanied him unto the ship.

 

[marhig]

Jesus said "as a little child" in terms of analogy. It doesn't literally mean children are perfect or without sin. Children are sinful by nature. We, as humans, are imperfect and have the capacity for sin.

Genesis 8:21 KJV
(21) And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.


Just to be clear, salvation isn't about being "earned" by scoring zero "sin points" during your life. If that was the case, abortion would be our savior instead of Jesus Christ. The issue is not the amount of "sin points" against us, but whether we learn to love and are willing to give ourselves to our God in faith, whether we will repent of our sinful nature and be willing to be changed. A child hasn't had opportunity to do that yet.

Jesus was using one good aspect of "children" (and not all children demonstrate that aspect) and saying that we needed to apply that childlike trust towards Him, that we needed to be able to keep that aspect and apply that towards repentance and eternal life. A child is not saved and has not earned salvation simply by not having demonstrated his sinful nature yet.

Is there more than one path to salvation? Is it through youth or lack of days, or is it through Jesus Christ?

Jesus is indicating that we are to go back to innocence, do you believe that an innocent baby would go to hell?

The younger a child is, the more innocent they are. Jesus talked about a little child. I have my 2 year old grandson living with me with his parents. He doesn't care about material gain, he doesn't find fault in people, he doesn't judge people, he's full of love, and he's so innocent and gentle, no way would I ever say a little child like that is going to hell. Children that young can't even understand the things of God, so how can they be judged? They are innocent, but as they grow, the flesh takes over and the more worldly wise they become.

Little children are as those who are in heaven, innocent and I can see completely why Jesus used a little child to make his point.

We are to become like those little children to enter in, our hearts should be cleansed and fleshly lusts and sin should be being cast out and we cant do it without the holy spirit and the only way is through Jesus Christ.

 

[way 2 go]

Wow, you just blew your own argument out of the water there. I didn't have to do anything. So Assos was in hell?

Acts 20:36-38 KJV
(36) And when he had thus spoken, he kneeled down, and prayed with them all.
(37) And they all wept sore, and fell on Paul's neck, and kissed him,
(38) Sorrowing most of all for the words which he spake, that they should see his face no more. And they accompanied him unto the ship.

desolation is a word for hell. I was agreeing with Cross Reference.


Luk 16:25**But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.G3600

Act 20:38**Sorrowing G3600 most of all for the words which he spake, that they should see his face no more

tormented and sorrowing
use the same word here : odunaō G3600
G3600 ὀδυνάω, odunaō, od-oo-nah'-o
From G3601; to grieve: - sorrow, torment.

So Assos was in hell?

Just pointing out out tormented or sorrow or grief
are interchangeable

the unrepentant person in hell, his sorrow comes from within
and the fact the person is in a lake of fire

Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

the person in hell his sorrow comes from within
but the hell deniers do not want any one to feel
sorrow or grief or shame
they want the unrepentant
to just expire without justice. Heb 10:31

Jesus revealed truth
the fire is not burning up the rich man

Luk 16:24**And calling he said, Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am suffering in this flame.

 

[Rosenritter]

Jesus is indicating that we are to go back to innocence, do you believe that an innocent baby would go to hell?

The younger a child is, the more innocent they are. Jesus talked about a little child. I have my 2 year old grandson living with me with his parents. He doesn't care about material gain, he doesn't find fault in people, he doesn't judge people, he's full of love, and he's so innocent and gentle, no way would I ever say a little child like that is going to hell. Children that young can't even understand the things of God, so how can they be judged? They are innocent, but as they grow, the flesh takes over and the more worldly wise they become.

Little children are as those who are in heaven, innocent and I can see completely why Jesus used a little child to make his point.

We are to become like those little children to enter in, our hearts should be cleansed and fleshly lusts and sin should be being cast out and we cant do it without the holy spirit and the only way is through Jesus Christ.

1. David still rests in sheol, that is the grave, also called hell. In the book of Acts he is contrasted against Jesus whose soul was not left in hell. When David had a little infant that died, he did not say that the child went to a special baby heaven, he said that it would not come to him, but that he would rather go to it. If David is dead and buried and not ascended to heaven (John 3:13) then the infant is also dead.

Acts 2:29-31 KJV
(29) Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
(30) Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
(31) He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.


2. Job says that the old man and the infant of days alike go to the same death. Passages already cited above, Job 3:11-22. Our Torment Gallery went into a fit and started with the personal mocking attacks rather than address the passage.

The question was not whether men or infants are in hell. That's a given, hell is the resting place of the dead, not a bizarre torture chamber. The question is whether hell will give up its dead when Jesus returns and calls them forth from the grave. If there is no resurrection to life there is no life. If you are arguing against the resurrection of children then you are saying that they shall never live.

If you are arguing that children shall not be judged, are you really so naive as to think that children are something other than small adults with fewer birthdays? The scripture says that the dead shall live and stand before God. Some of the dead are children. If you don't trust the words of those passages then say so. If you don't trust God's the methods of God's judgment than just say so.

I think we can trust God. I really don't think that he planned the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ thousands of years and advance and it never once occurred to him that some of the dead never had a chance to live in the first place. Do you think he's that careless? But neither do I believe that there is another path to Salvation other than Jesus Christ, which would be the case if your assertion of "infant salvation" were correct.

 

[Rosenritter]

desolation is a word for hell. I was agreeing with Cross Reference.

I know, Way 2 Go, you'd agree with the devil himself if he promised to torture people. Oh wait, that's right, you are agreeing with the devil himself.

Genesis 3:4 KJV
(4) And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: