Rosenritter
New member
Seen a lot of dis-proven assertions of such. We did see where Old Testament prophets said the devil would be destroyed for good by fire one day.
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
Seen a lot of dis-proven assertions of such. We did see where Old Testament prophets said the devil would be destroyed for good by fire one day.
way 2 go
Well-known member
yes Eternal Conscious Torment is biblical
Mat 25:46**And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Rosenritter
New member
Way 2 Go still hasn't figured out the difference between a NOUN and VERB so he persists in stupid comments like that.
way 2 go,
re: "Mat 25:46**And these will go away into eternal punishment..."
Why do you want to interpret "eternal punishment" to mean torture for eternity? Websters says about punishment: "a penalty imposed on an offender for a crime or wrongdoing." Why not take the penalty to consist of being put to death for eternity? Romans 6:23: "The wages of sin is death."
re: "...but the righteous into eternal life."
But for a person to be tortured for eternity, the unrighteous person would also have to be given eternal life.
re: "Mat 25:46**And these will go away into eternal punishment..."
Why do you want to interpret "eternal punishment" to mean torture for eternity? Websters says about punishment: "a penalty imposed on an offender for a crime or wrongdoing." Why not take the penalty to consist of being put to death for eternity? Romans 6:23: "The wages of sin is death."
re: "...but the righteous into eternal life."
But for a person to be tortured for eternity, the unrighteous person would also have to be given eternal life.
iouae
Well-known member
No, ECT is not biblical. The soul that sinner, it shall die. Die = annihilated.
way 2 go
Well-known member
plain language works for me
"eternal punishment" means "eternal punishment"
the language does not support finality
for example:
punishment with an end
Luk 19:27**But those who are my enemies, who did not desire that I should reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me.
punishment without an end
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Rom_7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.
Jesus told us the rich man died
and he is in the flames talking
not being consumed by the fire.
Luk 16:22**And it happened that the beggar died and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. The rich one also died and was buried.
Luk 16:23**And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24**And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame.
Rosenritter
New member
Way 2 Go is perverse that way. He must be a sadist to such an extent that he would reason that if the world to come didn't have unending torment that life won't be worth living.
Revelation 21:4 KJV
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
So I wonder what will happen when he tries to argue with God HIMSELF and demand that he torture people for Way 2 Go's amusement.
Rosenritter,
re: "So I wonder what will happen when he tries to argue with God HIMSELF and demand that he torture people for Way 2 Go's amusement."
I don't know that I'd say that way 2 go will be amused by it, but it sure seems that he wants those folks who don't meet the requirements for salavation to be tortured 24/7 for eternity.
re: "So I wonder what will happen when he tries to argue with God HIMSELF and demand that he torture people for Way 2 Go's amusement."
I don't know that I'd say that way 2 go will be amused by it, but it sure seems that he wants those folks who don't meet the requirements for salavation to be tortured 24/7 for eternity.
way 2 go
Well-known member
ad hominem
no more death in heaven.
Rev 21:1**And I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. And the sea no longer is.
ad hominem
Rosenritter which verse did Jesus lie ?
Jesus revealed truth
the consciousness departed exist.
the fire for the unrepentant to stand in exists.
the person in the fire not being consumed.
Luk 16:22**And it happened that the beggar died and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. The rich one also died and was buried.
Luk 16:23**And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24**And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame.
Rosenritter
New member
Then tell me Way 2 Go, would you want eternal life if others were not tormented for infinity?
mitchellmckain
New member
It is Biblical and it is explicitly taught in the Bible by Jesus Himself.
The teachings of Jesus support ECT and nothing actually supports annihilationism. The most you can say is that if you leave out some parts of the Bible then you are free to interpret other parts of the Bible as supporting this idea.
In a previous forum I saw lies pushed by both sides of this debate.
1. Someone actually said that "God is love" was not in the Bible.
2. Someone actually said that "eternal torment" was not in the Bible.
This kind of editing and denial is not honest. Reconciling the two is challenging but not impossible. I don't understand this effort to change the Bible according to some fantasy dreamworld. Life is full of very harsh realities.
I believe that God is truly motivated by love alone, but where this gets weird is when this is interpreted as God being some kind of nicey nice Mr. Rogers. Absolute unlimited cheap forgiveness independent of anything we do is NOT the lesson of life in the reality we experience and remaking Christianity like that can only make it less believable to point of being delusional.
However, ECT has also been turned into a tactic of intellectual blackmail that makes God into a mobster godfather with an extortion racket. That is more in line with a human obsession with power and control than it is with an all-powerful creator of life and the universe. The key question is the following:
Who is it that the salvation Christianity talks about supposedly saving us from?
To say we are being saved from God's wrath is contemptible, sounding most like the dark lords, Voldemorts, and super villains of the stories we tell. If Christianity is to be anything more that a childish comic book story then the answer to the above question would be that we are being saved from ourselves and our own self-destructive habits.
way 2 go
Well-known member
location of salt lake Utah, are you a mormon ?
any scripture to back up "saved from ourselves" ?
I think people underestimate their sin
and underestimate God's Holiness .
Rosenritter
New member
Greetings. I will assume that in spite of your avatar you are not related to Mr Way 2 Go here?
I will stop and challenge you at your first statement. Eternal conscious torment is not taught by Jesus or scripture. If you would like to discuss starting at that statement then please be my guest. I won't require that you read the last 300000 posts; starting from step one would be sufficient. Would you be willing to use King James?
way 2 go
Well-known member
name one .
I will name 3 you have not refuted
Jesus revealed truth
1.the consciousness departed exist.
2.the fire for the unrepentant to stand in exists.
3.the person in the fire not being consumed.
Luk 16:22**And it happened that the beggar died and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. The rich one also died and was buried.
Luk 16:23**And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24**And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame.
we did not see where Old Testament prophets said the devil would be destroyed for good by fire one day.
you must be misinterpreting scripture again.
that would contradict Jesus who said
the Devil will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Rev 20:10**And the Devil who deceived them was cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were . And he will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
mitchellmckain
New member
No. I belong to the 60% of residents who are not Mormon. I never have been. Nor has any of my family. But you should go to the newbie section where I addressed this same question in detail.
I am not parrot, and I see no merit in being one. In fact, I would equate that with being the sullen slothful servant in Matthew 25 who has a hateful view of God and so simply returns what has been given him without any personal investment. God gave us a brain for a reason in order to think about things and I what I think is that in Matthew 13 Jesus sees literalism as easy excuse for people who simply do not want to understand what He is saying.
What we find in the Bible on this issue is numerous references to the fact that the cause of our damnation is our own sins. It is sin which brings death and it does so because they are self-destructive habit which undermine our free will and everything good within us.
Yes people underestimate their sin. They also totally misunderstand the greatness of God because they force it into their own twisted ideas of greatness which is all about power and lording it over others. But from Jesus we learn that greatness as God sees it is something completely different -- being a servant and even a slave to other people.
Then there are also medieval elitist thinkers who justify turning the judicial metaphor for the atonement into some bizarre literal dogma that the value of a particular crime or punishment depends on the value of the victim or the perpetrator. That is just nonsense. Sin is not a crime against God. The idea that God could ever be a victim of anything we do is absurd. Indeed some sins are also crimes against fellow human beings but what really makes something a sin is what it does to ourselves.
mitchellmckain
New member
Greetings. I will also assume, that in spite of how similar you sound to Mr Way 2 Go, you are not simply his lackey or sock puppet.
I would stop at this statement but I believe in reading the whole of what someone says in order to understand everything in context. But I will challenge you continue past your pet peeve and read everything before you get on your favorite soapbox.
"Eternal torment" are a reasonable and widely agreed upon translation of Jesus words in Matthew 25, and Jesus' one and only explicit description of the afterlife in Luke 16 is one of conscious eternal torment. Now, do I think this parable should be taken literally? No. But it doesn't change the fact that ETC is what Jesus portrays there in his own words.
No, I will not accept King James as a final authority. It may sound good but it accuracy is questionable. I prefer the Revised Standard. Nor am I interested in a debate, for that seems to be nothing more than an excuse for dishonest tactics where sincerity is out the window. The fact is that we have different opinions for different subjective reasons and there really is no objective evidence as a basis for a reasonable expectation that others should agree with them. I welcome any comment you like to make and will remain free to read and/or comment on them if it interests me to do so.
Rosenritter
New member
Way 2 Go and myself are opposites. I did recently post something using his language and mannerisms, but that was a one post satire.
Question: if you say there is "no objective standard" then wouldn't that make everything merely subjective, in your view at least? "There are no absolutes?"
In the meantime I will try to assume you didn't mean it that way, and make appeals of authority to scripture.
Question 2: Where do you see "eternal torment" in Matthew 25? There is an eternal punishment, but not a word to indicate that the punishment is anything other than what we are told throughout the rest of scripture, namely, death.
Romans 6:23 KJV
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Question 3: Luke 16 does have a description of an afterlife. And torment is a part of that description. So two questions actually, where does it define that torment as unending, and why would one assume that this was a description of what would happen to real people, who were not fictitious characters in said parable?
I would probably have more questions based on your responses to those questions, but it is only fair to allow someone the chance to answer a question before running away hilly nilly before there is any agreement. Plus, you could also ask questions.
opcorn:
mitchellmckain
New member
But I don't say there is no objective standard. Science is founded on an objective standard. But religion is not and if you restrict yourself to objective standards then there is no room for the vast majority of the claims in religion and certainly no room for anything about a spiritual aspect to existence.
It is certainly the case that where there is no objective standard then everything is indeed founded on subjective evidence and reasons. This does not make it untrue or unknowable, but only means there can be no reasonable expectation that others should agree with you. Thus I reject all the intolerant religions as inventions of human beings obsessed with power and control. Instead I embrace the diversity of human thought as a creation of God much like His creation everywhere else -- in the stars and in all the species of living things.
The word κόλασιν is translated as both "punishment" and "torment" because the meaning of these words do overlap and the same adjective αἰώνιον is used for both destinies to describe something which is without end. Some "will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” It is simply dishonest to alter the meaning of one and not the other.
Instead of playing these word games to make this inconvenient text go away I prefer to confront the underlying problem. I certainly oppose the absurd justifications that sins are crimes that somehow deserve an eternal punishment. The judicial references are metaphor only and thus with limited applicability. But I see no reason whatsoever to dismiss the idea that our choices cannot have eternal consequences. Our experience in life teaches the opposite lesson.
In most choices you can expect that we will someday discover our mistake and learn from them. But this is not the case for all choices. Such is the choice between life and death itself. As long as there is life there is hope. As long as we continue to accept that we make mistakes and that we should learn from them then we can change. But if we make it our habit to refuse such an acknowledgement hedging ourselves in with self-delusion and willful ignorance, we will not learn from any mistakes. In that way we cut ourselves off from this basic process of life itself.
The Bible teaches that there are two kinds of death from the very first book of Genesis. There is the death of the body and the death of the spirit. Jesus says in Luke 9:60 "Let the dead bury their own dead." Those who are dead in spirit do not cease to exist. They merely lack the qualities of life.
Jesus speaks of eternal torment and eternal fire and in Luke 16 He illustrates that these words do not mean destruction but mean a conscious experience. Your response shows nothing except that you don't like this teaching of Jesus and prefer to replace it with something different.
Rosenritter
New member
Mitchell, my response shows that I am giving you space to respond to small questions, to see how you employ thought and reason, to discover what assumptions you entered with and if you are able to place scripture over assumptions. I would thank you kindly not to impute motives, and rather to ask me a question than to "fill in the blanks" to make response argument "easier."
You seem to suggest that our Bibles should have translated the word "punishment" as torment. Are you aware of any translation that does such?
You also seem to suggest that DEATH, the real type, not a metaphorical reference, would not be an eternal punishment. If it is not an eternal punishment, then when does it end? If the dead of the second death come back again, THEN it would be dishonest to call it eternal, would it not?
Next, in Matthew 25, if the word is punishment, it is a noun, but if it is punishing, it is a process. What does it say? Is it a noun or a verb?
And for the last question, for now, where does Genesis teach that there are two kinds of death? Does it actually teach that, or are you perhaps reading that into the book? Death is defined very clearly in Genesis, that as a result of their sin, man will return unto dust.
Genesis 3:19 KJV
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art , and unto dust shalt thou return.
Oh... One more. Actually pointing out that you dodged the question. Honesty, please, not assigning motives. Why do you think that the setting of the parable was intended to teach others that the setting was applicable for real people, rather than the two fictional characters?