Why complain about what your doctrine says all men are including yourself?
Facts are difficult for those deceived by the teachings of the RCC.
LA
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
Why complain about what your doctrine says all men are including yourself?
Facts are difficult for those deceived by the teachings of the RCC.
LA
I'm not fooled by the catholic church like you -
Rosenritter
New member
There's no mention of a judgment in that parable. In fact, doesn't the rich man in the story reply as if he still has brothers alive on earth during that time? I don't think the passage is compatible with your explanation.
Rosenritter
New member
I'm not sure where exactly Patrick stands on all things but he doesn't seem to be stereotypical Roman Catholic. As such I try to treat him like an individual and respond to what he actually says, rather than what I might assume he might say. I think all people prefer to be treated like that.
Lazy Afternoon, would you like to give a label for yourself so we can prejudice ourselves and pigeonhole you into a neat box?
I'm MAD
Rosenritter
New member
Sorry if I OFFENDED YOU.
They already have. Many think I am evil as Patrick does say.
You may not understand that the RCC reference is to the spiritual state of most believers in the world today in that the RCC was formed by believers of the time, and todays carnal minded folk do adhere to the same doctrines because they seem right to them in their same spiritual condition.
Shortly they will all unite, if not in words but in action and will persecute the true and faithful witnesses.
They will kill the righteous thinking they do God a service as they try to do with words now.
LA
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Well, 'non conformist non atheist'?
I don't go in for any sort of tag. I have belief but it's not of any traditional sort or denomination based or anything. Had enough of that when I used to be in a Pentecostal church...
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
It isn't a 'fact' simply because you declare it so. There's plenty of expositions by biblical scholars that go in depth on the passage even if you aren't willing to delve outside of your literal understanding of it.
If you take this as literal then how about you or 'Way 2 gif' explain why a man, supposedly on or surrounded by fire and in torment, would request a solitary drop of water for his tongue, and rather eloquently no less?
I mean, why not a monsoon? How was he even able to speak?
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
You're guilty of that exact same willful ignorance. You adhere to a literal understanding of a passage that is practically advertising metaphor and a deeper significance to it in order to retain a belief that countless people suffer interminably. Your belief is appalling to most people and you don't reflect any care or compassion for your fellow man otherwise you might just question your insidious belief a bit more.
It does mention the result of his judgment.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
It is compatible because such punishment will occur when his brothers are still alive, and there is no reason that the rich man could know anyway.
Are you Amil?
Find some other reasons, those you presented are without scriptural support.
LA
way 2 go
Well-known member
spoke to the multitudes about the kingdom of God in parables
hell on the other hand he was speaking plainly.
Jews knew about hell
Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Jesus is not contradicting scripture in Luke 16:19-31
Jesus is revealing truth in Luke 16:19-31
so Rosenritter are you calling Jesus a liar
you are still have not said in which verse Jesus lied
I said Jesus is revealing truth in Luke 16:19-31
you disagree with what Jesus plainly said
:idunno:
where did I lie ?
truth
consciousness of the departed,
fire for the unrepentant to stand in,
Luk 16:24**And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Rosenritter you need to explain...
in which verse Jesus lied ?
parables are about the kingdom not hell
Mat 13:10**And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11**He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Rosenritter
New member
The story has no judgment. The actual judgment is at the end of the world when the devil is laid low. This setting has none of that. It is the scene of the Greek mythological Hades, not the gehenna hell fire of Revelation.
Rosenritter
New member
Please explain "without support." Are you even reading the passage?
The Lord never used mythology to show truth in a parable.
The beast and false prophet are in the lake of fire at the beginning of the thousand years.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.(age lasting)
What you miss is that the Lord sends certain men into punishment at His return, which is the thousand years before the last judgment of all other mankind.
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
The casting into the lake of fire is at the end of the thousand years.
and look what is thrown into the lake of fire which is the second death--
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Do you get it now?
Is not scripture enough?
LA
Rosenritter
New member
Your statement is unsupported. Look at the Greek in Luke 16 if you doubt. That hell described is Hades. Now read the Greek myths of that same time frame. That fictional setting would be just as familiar to his audience and especially fitting if you knew the meaning of the parable.
Jesus also has parables involving graft and polygamy. Murder too. Are those OK just because they are mentioned in Parable? Shall I marry ten virgins at one time?
Only five were wise. That is only half of those expecting to be saved from the coming darkness preceding the Lords return.
The account of the rich man being in the fire in Luke 16, occurs after his raising from the dead, and being judged.
It does not mean that his going into the grave is where he is in the fire.
Perhaps you believe in the hades of the RCC?
I do not think you do but you are forced to believe that by your statements.
(I do know of the meanings of the parable, but as with all parables, it has its exact literal meaning.
For you can not place the poor man in Abrahams bosom after he has died except in accepting that they all have been raised from the dead at the same time)
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
LA
Cross Reference
New member
Cross Reference
New member
I wont deal with willful ignorance except to call it out when I read it from someone who is.
So you say it is willful ignorance to believe Bible facts.
We can expect that from one who follows the teachings of men.
If you have nothing credible to say then you should just be quite.
LA