Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[way 2 go]

It is a 'parable' (obviously),...Jesus spoke in parables didn't he?

Jesus spoke in parables
about the kingdom of heaven

Mat 13:10**And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11**He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.


Jesus spoke plainly about hell.

Luk 16:24**And calling he said, Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am suffering in this flame.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Jesus spoke in parables
about the kingdom of heaven

Mat 13:10**And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11**He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.


Jesus spoke plainly about hell.

Luk 16:24**And calling he said, Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am suffering in this flame.

Yes but none has shown the eternal suffering of anyone after the second death.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The second death is not a life.

People do not seem to understand that simple fact.

LA

 

[way 2 go]

Yes but none has shown the eternal suffering of anyone after the second death.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The second death is not a life.

People do not seem to understand that simple fact.

LA

Mat 25:46**And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Mat 25:46**And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

When did they go into everlasting punishment?

They were still alive before the second death when they were.

How do you account for them supposedly being alive after the second death?

You can not.

 

[way 2 go]

When did they go into everlasting punishment?

They were still alive before the second death when they were.

How do you account for them supposedly being alive after the second death?

You can not.

Jesus reveals already known truths in Luke 16:19-31
such as consciousness of the departed,
fire for the unrepentant to stand in.



btw fire is not burning the rich man up.

Luk 16:24**And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

fire will not burn up the devil nor the dead that go there

Rev 20:10**And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


hey look the dead standing just like the dead rich guy
from Luke 16:19-31
and the dead are going to the same place the devil
is going and the devil is not annihilated .

Rev 20:12**And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13**And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14**And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

 

[freelight]

Sorry, you cant get past the original language meaning.......

Sorry, you cant get past the original language meaning.......

Mat 25:46**And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

This verse does NOT in any way prove ECT, since the word 'aionios' pertains to a period of time, an age, a dispesenation. Only if it is describing 'God' himself or divinity, could we apply some sense of 'eternal', 'never-ending' or 'infinite' to it. Otherwise it always pertains to an 'age', a span of time. There are many different ages/dispensations in the providence of God, and in the ever unfolding cosmos.

We've already covered lessons on the word 'aion' and its adjectival forms, and Matt. 25:46 here. I recommend learning these pertinent facts

 

[freelight]

Jesus spoke in parables
about the kingdom of heaven

Mat 13:10**And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11**He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.


Jesus spoke plainly about hell.

Luk 16:24**And calling he said, Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am suffering in this flame.

You're stuck with the unnecessary assumption that the parable of Lazarus is NOT a parable. It is. But if you want to believe otherwise,...that's your choice :idunno:

 

[way 2 go]

This verse does NOT in any way prove ECT, since the word 'aionios' pertains to a period of time, an age, a dispesenation. Only if it is describing 'God' himself or divinity, could we apply some sense of 'eternal', 'never-ending' or 'infinite' to it. Otherwise it always pertains to an 'age', a span of time. There are many different ages/dispensations in the providence of God, and in the ever unfolding cosmos.

We've already covered lessons on the word 'aion' and its adjectival forms, and Matt. 25:46 . I recommend learning these pertinent facts

so you agree with punishment just have a problem with
duration ?


Rev 20:10**And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Is Jesus eternal?

 

[way 2 go]

You're stuck with the unnecessary assumption that the parable of Lazarus is NOT a parable. It is. But if you want to believe otherwise,...that's your choice :idunno:

in which verse of Luke 16:19-31 did Jesus lie ?

 

[freelight]

Lets consider some more pointers here....to get things in 'context'......

Lets consider some more pointers here....to get things in 'context'......

so you agree with punishment just have a problem with
duration ?

Come on way 2 go,....we've corresponded enough that you ought to know my viewpoints, unless you haven't really read my commentary or researched the articles/links/videos I've shared on the subject.

We've also been thru this on the 'karma' thread here, and I've expounded my views on such amply, so that you ought to know plainly that 'whatever a man sows, that also shall he reap',...note that this is commensurate with what and how much he has sown,....measure for measure,....nothing more, nothing less, and this is also known as the 'law of compensation'. Each soul only suffers for its own sins, according to their serverity and duration. An eternity of 'punishment' for sins only sown within one human life-span (in time) is grossly unjust, senseless and illogical. We've been thru this.

So, obviously I recognize we all suffer for our own sins. (this by the way does away with the idea of someone else atoning for your sins, but that's another thread). Again, the law of compensation (karma) is fair and equitable, since all suffering is commensurate with the sins committed, as well as all blessings for having pure heart and right-doing,...these are the natural consequences for one's own heart/soul condition, one reaping from their own sins or repentance. When a sinner turns from his wicked ways and 'repents',....he reaps the positive benefits of doing so, and this goes both ways you see. So, you have to factor in 'karma' (actions and consequences) into the equation, and other laws that affect or determine outcomes and destinies.

 

[freelight]

in which verse of Luke 16:19-31 did Jesus lie ?

:doh:

 

[Lazy afternoon]

so you agree with punishment just have a problem with
duration ?


Rev 20:10**And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Is Jesus eternal?

There is only day and night in the age.

It is clear that the second death occurs AFTER the second living.

You can not face that fact.

LA

 

[Cross Reference]

This verse does NOT in any way prove ECT, since the word 'aionios' pertains to a period of time, an age, a dispesenation. Only if it is describing 'God' himself or divinity, could we apply some sense of 'eternal', 'never-ending' or 'infinite' to it. Otherwise it always pertains to an 'age', a span of time. There are many different ages/dispensations in the providence of God, and in the ever unfolding cosmos.

We've already covered lessons on the word 'aion' and its adjectival forms, and Matt. 25:46 here. I recommend learning these pertinent facts

WE? . . . haven't covered anything except "some sense" of the degree of your obstinacy you adhere to. What do you hope to gain by such willful ignorance? You are no longer innocent. Get it right before you die otherwise "everylasting punishment" as in "never ending",, awaits you.

There is no framing anything in time in eternity because 'time' and 'ages' do not exist in eternity. So, so much for the dispensations of it and your attempts at trying to.

 

[Cross Reference]

There is only day and night in the age.

It is clear that the second death occurs AFTER the second living.

You can not face that fact.

LA

What is clear is that you live with 'synthesized' understanding?

 

[Cross Reference]

Quote Originally Posted by freelight View Post
It is a 'parable' (obviously),...Jesus spoke in parables didn't he?

Yes He did. . . . and He also used the "mens room" when the need arose.

You're stuck with the unnecessary assumption that the parable of Lazarus is NOT a parable. It is. But if you want to believe otherwise,...that's your choice :idunno:

And he believes wisely.


It has been told you that parables need to be explained. Stories don't. By Jesus' use of parables were meanings of 'situations and circumstances' purposely withheld from the "wilfully ignorant", those who really didn't want to understand, . . . like you. I say that of you because you already know a story needs no explanation. So that leaves you without excuse for believing this one. You have never even asked a question which proves you know.. The Pharisees Jesus was speaking to already knew the answer as well. Now what is left is for you to either believe the story or, 'go down the road'.

 

[Rosenritter]

When did they go into everlasting punishment?

They were still alive before the second death when they were.

How do you account for them supposedly being alive after the second death?

You can not.

Way 2 Go believes that death is life.

 

[Rosenritter]

Yes He did. . . . and He also used the "mens room" when the need arose.



And he believes wisely.


It has been told you that parables need to be explained. Stories don't. By Jesus' use of parables were meanings of 'situations and circumstances' purposely withheld from the "wilfully ignorant", those who really didn't want to understand, . . . like you. I say that of you because you already know a story needs no explanation. So that leaves you without excuse for believing this one. You have never even asked a question which proves you know.. The Pharisees Jesus was speaking to already knew the answer as well. Now what is left is for you to either believe the story or, 'go down the road'.

Did you ever ask for an explanation of the parable Cross Reference?

See, if you believe a parable to be a true story, that is your error. Yes, it would require explanation, many explanations. Such as "If what you believe is true, then how come the Greeks and Pagans had the truth all this time in what was denied to the Hebrews?" and "How come God would have lied through his prophets in the Old Testament when he spoke about death and resurrection?

If Luke 16 is not a parable, then either Jesus lied or Jesus contradicts himself elsewhere and God lied in many other places in scripture. Notice how Way 2 Go invokes some sort of bizarre circular logic, places "Not a parable" as higher than God and Christ and then accuses "you say Jesus lied." We will use Way 2 Go as an example of liar in this case, not something to emulate.

So before you tell someone that it "needs no explanation" you need to explain many things. Are you going to stand still and explain when asked?

 

[Lazy afternoon]

It is clear that the second death occurs AFTER the second living.



LA

What is clear is that you live with 'synthesized' understanding?

The second death occurs AFTER the second living.

You can not deal with it using any verses to deny that.

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Yes Luke 16 is a parable based on facts including that there is punishment in fire for the wicked after they have died and been raised from the dead.

LA

 

[patrick jane]

Yes Luke 16 is a parable based on facts including that there is punishment in fire for the wicked after they have died and been raised from the dead.

LA

Why are you so wicked?