Having pleasure in unrighteousness has nothing to do with being deceived about the state of the dead.
I expect a retraction.
LA
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
Having pleasure in unrighteousness has nothing to do with being deceived about the state of the dead.
I expect a retraction.
LA
lifeisgood
New member
I believe I said you do not agree with certain verses in the Bible.
Did not say you do not believe the Bible. I said I believe you do not agree with certain verses in the Bible.
This thread.
You believe that John 3:16 is for everybody?
lifeisgood
New member
Yes, the Bible says that the wages of sin is death. You believe that it is physical death. I believe it is total and complete separation from God not only physical death. I have explained it to you, however, you do not like my answer. Nothing I can do about that.
As I have said to you, God is NOT a torturer.
Is Satan in hell being tortured now or has Satan totally and completely separated himself from God by his own volition? Either way Satan is dead.
See, you do not agree with “This son of mine was dead and is alive again” (Luke 15:24).
Again, you are thinking of only physical death.
lifeisgood
New member
You disagree with yourself, saying that yes, the John 3:16 is for everyone and then saying that it is for those who accept Him.
You misunderstood the question as per your response above.
lifeisgood
New member
Have at it.
way 2 go
Well-known member
luke 16: and revelation 20: are in agreement
the ones that will first inhabit the lake of fire
are not burned up anymore than the rich man in Luk 16:24
Rev 20:10**And the Devil who deceived them was cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were . And he will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
1st death place is thrown into the second death place
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.
It may well be but the throwing into the second death place annihilates everything thrown into it.
LA
way 2 go
Well-known member
way 2 go
Well-known member
timothy Illegitimate Totality Transfers death
to mean physical only
1st death place is thrown into the second death place
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.
way 2 go
Well-known member
Heb_11:1**Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
way 2 go
Well-known member
which verse is a lie ?
answer : none
Jesus revealed truths in Luke 16
consciousness of the departed,
fire for the unrepentant to stand in
Luk 16:24**And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
consciousness of the departed,
a protected place with Abraham right next to the unpleasant place,
Luk 16:26**And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
consciousness of the departed,
fire for the unrepentant to stand in
Luk 16:28**For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
the place of torment is historical
made known to people by
Moses and the Prophets
and if you do not believe them
you will not believe one rising from the dead.
Luk 16:31**And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
answer : none
Jesus revealed truths in Luke 16
consciousness of the departed,
fire for the unrepentant to stand in
Luk 16:24**And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
consciousness of the departed,
a protected place with Abraham right next to the unpleasant place,
Luk 16:26**And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
consciousness of the departed,
fire for the unrepentant to stand in
Luk 16:28**For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
the place of torment is historical
made known to people by
Moses and the Prophets
and if you do not believe them
you will not believe one rising from the dead.
Luk 16:31**And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Rosenritter
New member
Judges 9:8-10 KJV
(8) The trees went forth on a time to anoint a king over them; and they said unto the olive tree, Reign thou over us.
(9) But the olive tree said unto them, Should I leave my fatness, wherewith by me they honour God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees?
(10) And the trees said to the fig tree, Come thou, and reign over us.
Which of those verses is a lie, Way 2 Go? Do you even understand the meaning of the word "parable?"
I'm sorry that you misunderstood. You asked if John 3:16 is for everyone, and it is.
John 3:16 says that eternal life is for everyone who believes in the Son of God.
Everyone who rejects the Son of God will perish. So John 3:16 is for everyone, as everyone will either have eternal life or they will perish.
You misunderstood my questions, and you didn't answer them. Could you please tell whether or not you believe that there are some who can accept Jesus Christ and NOT inherit eternal life. And are there some who can reject Jesus Christ and still inherit eternal life?
I don't understand your idea that John 3:16 is only for some people. Don't get angry, just have a discussion.
The prodigal son was not dead. He was in a different country feeding pigs. Don't you understand that while the father thought that his son was dead, the son was really not dead? I agree with Luke 15:24. I agree that the father said "This son of mine was dead and is alive again." That doesn't mean that his son was dead, which we know from reading the parable. We know that the son was not dead, he was alive and feeding pigs. Re-read the parable.
Your proof of eternal conscious torture in hell is very weak.
John 3:16 sums up the gospel very well. Whoever believes in Jesus Christ will have eternal life and whoever rejects Him will perish. There is no reason to believe that those who reject Christ will inherit eternal life so that they can be tortured alive forever in hell. Why don't you just give up the false idea that God set up a place of eternal torture called hell? The Bible says that the wicked will perish. Jesus Christ says in Luke 13:3 that those who refuse to repent will perish. Why not simply believe what Jesus Christ says?
I have that same problem but it has nothing to do with universalism
And you are entitled to your opinion, even though it is wrong.
Please allow me to correct your mistake. Tell me WHICH verses you THINK I do not agree with, or just admit that you are wrong that I do not agree with "certain verses in the Bible."
It is shameful for you to make the statement that I do not agree with what the Bible says, when it is clear that you do not agree with what the Bible says in the following verses:
John 3:16
Romans 6:23
Matthew 7:13-14
Matthew 10:28
Luke 13:3
2 Thessalonians 1:9
Jude 1:7
2 Peter 3:7
Ezekiel 18:4
Malachi 4:1-4
Cross Reference
New member
God does not grant eternal Life
God does not grant eternal Life
This is the OP of my new thread in the ECT forum that I hope "my friends" will read and participate.. I fully realize that words mean something and all too often require insight for accurate/complete understanding. I have endeavored to be as succinct as is possosile, given my education. I pray much can be gleaned for it. For this reason I ask for all to tread lightly because this is NOT an exhausted paper. Thank you:
God does not grant eternal life to anyone reconciled to Him anymore than He does not grant eternal death to those who die not reconciled to Him. It is what it is. Heaven is the is the only place a reconciled soul can go upon departing his flesh.
The soul of man is a completely independent entity apart from the body, desired by God to be in complete union with Him. No flesh can please God. When the soul of a man refuses to grant God His desire, God has no choice but separate Himself from it which leaves it in eternal despair. (cf Gen 3:21 KJV) God is bound by the demand laid upon Him by His own Holiness, i.e., no sin; unreconciled soul, can stand in His Presence (Ex 33:20-23 KJV).
So now the issue becomes, what happens to the 'everliving unreconciled soul of man that when separated from its 'counterpart body' that was joined with it by God’s gifted "breath of Life"; human spirit, which upon the death of the body, is returned to God Who gave it? "Then shall the dust [body] return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV)
Leaving the soul of man that cannot die to be atoned for lest it remain eternally separated from the presence of God to aimlessly ‘drift’ in the blackest darkness downward as being in “bottomless pit” with complete sensation as to what is happening to it. “And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the “bottomless pit”. Revelation 9:1ff (KJV)
I believe it is bottomless because God has made no place on earth to abide ”falling” man, either in this life or the next. Hence, no contact, no remembrance of them in the new Heaven and Earth. (cf1Sam28:7)
"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you". Romans 8:9-11 (KJV)
In this is the word death never to be misunderstood to be a biological death where it ends in a sudden fashion but, a spiritual one that cannot ever end because of make up of man’s existence decreed to be in the likeness of God and we know, God cannot die. Therefore, when speaking of death in man it is meant to be understood as a departure away from the presence of God not unlike Lucifer who was cast out of Heaven; away from the Holy presence of God.
Question: Did Lucifer actually die? Did his soul die? Yes. Does he still exist? Again, yes. But for Satan, there will no resurrection but eternal chains.
Same as man. How come because his soul can't die and his body subjected to decay, resides in dust in the earth.
Why not ask yourself the question why God prevented Adam from eating of the tree of Life after he transgressed?
If I said that had he eaten of it would have placed none redeemable chains upon him and all his progeny; chains that could never be removed be God because he would have become as God . . . . but, without Holiness. Who is greater than God? Who could have redeemed him? Now re-read, “If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:6 (KJV)
Where could repentance have stemmed when there would have been not even the desire for it? “Vanity”, the law of the flesh, now being their eternal god. Reconciliation with God would have been impossible.
Now, bring this all up to the NT to understand what Jesus was attempting to convey to Nicodemus re new birth, for him to understand in his desire to know, to also understand the responsibility that would have been laid upon him in the matter upon receiving it, Paul was attempting the convey in Heb.6:1-6 KJV.
God does not grant eternal Life
This is the OP of my new thread in the ECT forum that I hope "my friends" will read and participate.. I fully realize that words mean something and all too often require insight for accurate/complete understanding. I have endeavored to be as succinct as is possosile, given my education
God does not grant eternal life to anyone reconciled to Him anymore than He does not grant eternal death to those who die not reconciled to Him. It is what it is. Heaven is the is the only place a reconciled soul can go upon departing his flesh.
The soul of man is a completely independent entity apart from the body, desired by God to be in complete union with Him. No flesh can please God. When the soul of a man refuses to grant God His desire, God has no choice but separate Himself from it which leaves it in eternal despair. (cf Gen 3:21 KJV) God is bound by the demand laid upon Him by His own Holiness, i.e., no sin; unreconciled soul, can stand in His Presence (Ex 33:20-23 KJV).
So now the issue becomes, what happens to the 'everliving unreconciled soul of man that when separated from its 'counterpart body' that was joined with it by God’s gifted "breath of Life"; human spirit, which upon the death of the body, is returned to God Who gave it? "Then shall the dust [body] return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV)
Leaving the soul of man that cannot die to be atoned for lest it remain eternally separated from the presence of God to aimlessly ‘drift’ in the blackest darkness downward as being in “bottomless pit” with complete sensation as to what is happening to it. “And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the “bottomless pit”. Revelation 9:1ff (KJV)
I believe it is bottomless because God has made no place on earth to abide ”falling” man, either in this life or the next. Hence, no contact, no remembrance of them in the new Heaven and Earth. (cf1Sam28:7)
"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you". Romans 8:9-11 (KJV)
In this is the word death never to be misunderstood to be a biological death where it ends in a sudden fashion but, a spiritual one that cannot ever end because of make up of man’s existence decreed to be in the likeness of God and we know, God cannot die. Therefore, when speaking of death in man it is meant to be understood as a departure away from the presence of God not unlike Lucifer who was cast out of Heaven; away from the Holy presence of God.
Question: Did Lucifer actually die? Did his soul die? Yes. Does he still exist? Again, yes. But for Satan, there will no resurrection but eternal chains.
Same as man. How come because his soul can't die and his body subjected to decay, resides in dust in the earth.
Why not ask yourself the question why God prevented Adam from eating of the tree of Life after he transgressed?
If I said that had he eaten of it would have placed none redeemable chains upon him and all his progeny; chains that could never be removed be God because he would have become as God . . . . but, without Holiness. Who is greater than God? Who could have redeemed him? Now re-read, “If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:6 (KJV)
Where could repentance have stemmed when there would have been not even the desire for it? “Vanity”, the law of the flesh, now being their eternal god. Reconciliation with God would have been impossible.
Now, bring this all up to the NT to understand what Jesus was attempting to convey to Nicodemus re new birth, for him to understand in his desire to know, to also understand the responsibility that would have been laid upon him in the matter upon receiving it, Paul was attempting the convey in Heb.6:1-6 KJV.
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lifeisgood
New member
Why is it so important to you that I show you anything? You do not need my approval. You are the one who will have to account for your belief and I for mine.
lifeisgood
New member
My point exactly! Adam knew; however, he did not have faith in the One he knew.
No wonder Jesus said, "Thomas, because you have seen me [because you know me], you have believed: blessed are they that have not seen [don't know me like you do Thomas], and yet have believed [know Me].