Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

Cross Reference

Cross Reference

New member
Timotheos said:
You disagree with the Bible which states that a soul can die, You are wrong and the Bible is right. Consider yourself wrong and God right.
Click to expand...

"God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged." Romans 3:4 (KJV)

The soul that sins will die, over and over and over and over . . . . . . . and over, without end! Why? Because the soul is independent of the will of God much as child's will is independent of its father's, from birth.

You might want to ask yourelf why God didn't destroy Adam after he transgessed and start all over again?
 
Cross Reference

Cross Reference

New member
Cross Reference said:
"God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged." Romans 3:4 (KJV)

I fully believe the soul can die. Your definition of the words 'death' and 'everlsating' is the issue.

The soul that sins will die, over and over and over and over . . . . . . . and over, without end! Why? Because the soul is independent of the will of God much as child's will is independent of its father's, from birth.

You might want to ask yourelf why God didn't destroy Adam after he transgessed and start all over again?
Click to expand...
 
T

Timotheos

New member
Cross Reference said:
"God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged." Romans 3:4 (KJV)

The soul that sins will die, over and over and over and over . . . . . . . and over, without end! Why? Because the soul is independent of the will of God much as child's will is independent of its father's, from birth.

You might want to ask yourelf why God didn't destroy Adam after he transgessed and start all over again?
Click to expand...

You don't know what you are talking about. The Bible says that the soul who sins shall die. It does not say "The soul that sins will die, over and over and over and over . . . . . . . and over, without end!"
You should read the Bible in order to learn what it says.

You ask "Why didn't God destroy Adam and start all over?"
God didn't need to. He provided a way for Adam and the rest of us to have our sins forgiven so that we can receive eternal life. Read John 3:16.
 
T

Timotheos

New member
This whole unpleasant exchange brings up a good point in my mind.

This website is called "Theology Online". By that, I presume we mean "Biblical Theology."
If a tradition, no matter how popular it is, contradicts Biblical Theology, it should be rejected.
We have been told "A soul can never die, so wicked souls must go to hell when they die where they can be tortured alive forever as punishment." The problem is that this contradicts Biblical Theology. The Bible not only says that a soul CAN die, it specifically states that the soul who sins SHALL die.

People seem to be ready and willing to discard the Bible if it disagrees with their doctrine. This is particularly true if the doctrine they enjoy is eternal torture in hell. We should not discard Biblical Theology just because we prefer the thought of others being tortured in hell.

This topic has been debated and decided:
The doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment is NOT Biblical, even though it is loved by many people.
 
Rosenritter

Rosenritter

New member
Timotheos said:
This whole unpleasant exchange brings up a good point in my mind.

This website is called "Theology Online". By that, I presume we mean "Biblical Theology."
If a tradition, no matter how popular it is, contradicts Biblical Theology, it should be rejected.
We have been told "A soul can never die, so wicked souls must go to hell when they die where they can be tortured alive forever as punishment." The problem is that this contradicts Biblical Theology. The Bible not only says that a soul CAN die, it specifically states that the soul who sins SHALL die.

People seem to be ready and willing to discard the Bible if it disagrees with their doctrine. This is particularly true if the doctrine they enjoy is eternal torture in hell. We should not discard Biblical Theology just because we prefer the thought of others being tortured in hell.

This topic has been debated and decided:
The doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment is NOT Biblical, even though it is loved by many people.
Click to expand...

It's actually experiences like this that help to remind me why Universalism doesn't work. I mean that in my mind, I have trouble imagining how someone can read scripture and then flat out lie about it, or how they could stand before God and tell him that He is wrong and they are right. But we see examples here on this thread, like Cross Reference with his "the souls do not die" and "the souls die over and over again." So he is contradicting himself now, but the common rule seems to be anything (and I mean anything) except what God gave us in scripture.

You mentioned "we should not discard the bible just because we prefer the thought of others being tortured in hell" but here's a thought. I think that perhaps God doesn't want people who would "enjoy the thought of others being tortured in hell" ... and when someone's heart is that evil he would rather send them a strong delusion. It is written such, isn't it?

2Th 2:11-12 KJV
(11) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
(12) That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

If God has sent the delusion because the heart has pleasure in unrighteousness, then maybe nothing we say or show from scripture is going to crack it.
 
Rosenritter

Rosenritter

New member
chrysostom said:
who is arguing for universalism?
Click to expand...

On this thread, no one. In theory, if the problem with the human heart was simply lack of knowledge, then one might suppose that every one would repent when they stood before God, and that with that genuine repentance combined with opportunity that perhaps all might be saved. If I were mistaken about something just from lack of knowing, I would embrace a loving God that loved his creation. So why wouldn't everyone?

Eze 33:11 KJV
(11) Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

That's the idea that comes to mind at least, but examples like this show that there are people who simply hate and detest the thought of love and kindness and forgiveness to others. It's not always a matter of not having heard the gospel, or not having seen the scripture, and as such I don't think it would matter if God stood before them and spoke with thunder and lightning. The thunder and lightning might generate a fake "show of repentance" but it wouldn't fool God, who knows their hearts and has been watching this fiasco all this time when they think he isn't watching.

It hurts seeing people act like that, but it reminds me why there will be some who must be destroyed, because they will not choose love, life, forgiveness, and they actually despise the nature of God himself.
 
lifeisgood

lifeisgood

New member
Timotheos said:
Please provide the Chapter and Verse from the Bible that states "Hell Fire means total and complete separation from God." Thanks
Click to expand...

Second Thessalonians 1:8–9 says, “He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.”

To be separated from God is to be forever shut off from light (1 John 1:5), separated from love (1 John 4:8), separated from joy (Matthew 25:23), and separated from peace (Ephesians 2:14) because only God is the source of all good things.
 
T

Timotheos

New member
lifeisgood said:
You can find the answer if you are really interested in finding it. You will not agree with either way.
Click to expand...

Sigh...

This is like pulling teeth.

Your answer to question #1 was....A,B,C,or D?
Your answer to question #2 was....A,B,C,or D?
Your answer to question #3 was....A,B,C,or D?
Your answer to question #4 was....A,B,C,or D?

I know, I know... If your answer the questions honestly it points out the flaws in the doctrine you like best. Too bad.
 
lifeisgood

lifeisgood

New member
Timotheos said:
Sigh...

This is like pulling teeth.

Your answer to question #1 was....A,B,C,or D?
Your answer to question #2 was....A,B,C,or D?
Your answer to question #3 was....A,B,C,or D?
Your answer to question #4 was....A,B,C,or D?

I know, I know... If your answer the questions honestly it points out the flaws in the doctrine you like best. Too bad.
Click to expand...

No. It shows that you disagree with the Bible and you want others to disagree with Jesus, John, and Paul all inspired by the Holy Spirit and agree with you.
 
T

Timotheos

New member
lifeisgood said:
God is not a torturer.
Click to expand...

That's what I believe. However, if God really does send people to hell so that they can be tortured alive forever, then God would be a torturer. You really cannot have it both ways. Either the Bible is correct that the wages of sin is death, or the Bible is wrong and you are right and God is a torturer. Which do you want? Do you want the Bible to be correct, and God not be an eternal torturer, or do you want to argue that the Bible is wrong and God actually does torture people alive in hell?
 
T

Timotheos

New member
lifeisgood said:
No. It shows that you disagree with the Bible and you want others to disagree with Jesus, John, and Paul all inspired by the Holy Spirit and agree with you.
Click to expand...

You can't answer simple questions!
I actually AGREE with Jesus, John, Paul and the Holy Spirit and you do not.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top