Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Rosenritter]

I had no idea so many were so sick and demented.

LA

Those are famous examples, but real ones exist in the here and now. The type that you meet and talk to everyday. I talked with one pastor once. He was insistent that the (non-saved) dead would live forever in torment. I asked him how he expected those called "mortals" to survive hell fire when the bible explicitly states that the devil himself will be burnt up and be no more from that judgment flame. He was pretty shocked as he hadn't read that part in his bible before.

His reply was that "People believe what they want to believe" ... and then clarified "I mean me" (himself) with that he (obviously, being one of the saints) would need to see people being tortured without end of he didn't think he would be able to stay loyal to God for eternity. Had had abandoned any notion of a scriptural argument and proceeded to his "moral" argument. Now it was my turn to be shocked.

But I realized that there was truth in that statement, and it explains the hardness of heart and stupidity of mind that one sees surface on this subject. When one loves not the truth God gives them over to a strong delusion. If someone "needs" to see someone tortured without end, then that is what they will choose to believe in spite of all evidence and revelation to the contrary. They will cite catch-phrases and ignore questions from scripture. They may be the goats that are cast into that hell fire themselves, for as they would deny mercy to others, they may receive none themselves.

 

[Rosenritter]

Jesus said: "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."] Matthew 22:32 (KJV)

This was spoken by Jesus before going to the cross; before entering paradise for setting free the souls of men who had died in righteousness but nevertheless remained captive by the Devil because of the sin of Adam, all of this being a part of the curse placed upon man for Adam's transgression. Many of these souls [The Bible calls them souls because what else could they be since their bodies had decayed to dust] had been there for 4000 yrs +/-, making them to be that old. This place of paradise [Abraham's bosom] was prepared by God to keep them in His care to await the shedding of the blood of Jesus that would set them free to His Holy Presence.

Up until that point in time were they the souls of men seperated from their bodies. Upon Jesus' descending into the grave, the abode of the dead, were they resurrected along with Him after 3 days and many were seen in the streets of Jerusalem. Living souls reunited with their now glorified bodies that CAN NEVER taste death again!!

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" John 11:25-26 (KJV)


Question: Were not their souls dead because of Adam's transgression???? In all those same 4000 yrs of bodies dying, where did the souls of the unrighteous go to await being resurrected? Why did'nt they come out of the grave along with the righteous and receive glorified bodies as they did? What was the problem? Where are they even to this day? Certainly not paradise because paradise came out of the grave when the righteous resurrected and is now in heaven where Paul was caught up to:

"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth how that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter." 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 (KJV)

Have you accepted my challenge, and is that your question?


Question: Were not their souls dead because of Adam's transgression????
A: Indirectly, yes.


Q: In all those same 4000 yrs of bodies dying, where did the souls of the unrighteous go to await being resurrected?
A: They died, remained in the grave, without love, hatred, envy, or knowledge that they were dead.


Q: Why did'nt they come out of the grave along with the righteous and receive glorified bodies as they did?
A: False question, uses flawed assumption, there is no mention that those raised at Christ's death received glorified bodies.


Q: What was the problem? Where are they even to this day?
I believe they perished again naturally, just like Lazarus whom Christ raised and the widow's boy raised by Elijah would have perished again naturally as well. Scripture says that both the saints alive and those perished shall be changed at the same time, see Hebrews 11 below:

Heb 11:39-40 KJV
(39) And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
(40) God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.



You proposed that some were made perfect without us, Paul says that it does not happen without one another at the same time. Also see 1 Corinthians 15.


A: Certainly not paradise because paradise came out of the grave when the righteous resurrected and is now in heaven where Paul was caught up to:
Q: Minor foul, statement does not follow from scripture and is not for purpose of asking a question.

Please take care not to make unfounded statements in this exchange.


Now, my turn. For reference, see the passage you cited above in Matthew, "God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." If Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were conscious or aware in any state of contentedness while Jesus spoke, then they would be "alive" and have no need of resurrection. Yet Jesus said what he said for the express purpose of proving the necessity of the resurrection. Please explain how that passage proves the resurrection of the dead.

 

[Rosenritter]

No, I do not wish to retract that bold statement.

Again, you are thinking of 'fire' as in the 'physical' sense as we think of fire.
I am thinking of 'fire' in the way God thinks about it.

And what's that?
A person in total and complete separation from God knowing and understanding that NOW (in hell) knowing and understanding that he/she rejected what he/she was presented with and NOW (in hell) cannot have what they rejected and wanting it desperately.

And what is it that they want?
To be with God.


Talk about 'destruction' in the 'fire' of understanding eternally.

What makes you think the fire is not actual fire? All the description of what the fire will do matches what we know about real fire.

 

[Rosenritter]

Every "body" will come out of the grave by being reunited with its soul to either Life everlasting in Heaven or eternal damnation, without end, in Hell, "eternal damnation" called by Jesus, the "second death": "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:14-15 (KJV)

Question: How can the already "everlasting" dead be judged, per Rev 20:12,13 KJV? Are they not already, "everlastingly" annihilated?

Death is a punishment for sin. This is said in the bible and should not be controversial. It is appointed unto men once to die, then the judgment. Death, as we receive in this world, is a punishment indeed, but it is not an everlasting punishment. Those killed will be raised to judgment.

Those who receive everlasting punishment of death can be spoken of as "everlastingly" annihilated because they shall not rise ever again. They are permanently dead, reduced to ashes, said to be "never shalt thou be any more." It would be a good idea not to use the word "annihilated" because we already have scriptural terms that suffice. Death, dead, destroyed, reduced to ashes, be no more, gone down into silence, mists of darkness, and so forth.


Your turn, Question: Does God have the power to bring someone back to life that has been annihilated? To clarify, I speak of power and ability, not a broad guess of will and intent. Can God recreate what he has destroyed? Yes, or no.

 

[Rosenritter]

I did not know that I was having a contest with the Holy Spirit and that He left you to be the judge in His place.

The Holy Spirit wrote the scriptures. If your dictionary claims one thing, and the scriptures says opposite, then it's a contest between the Holy Spirit and your definition. I believe the right decision is to side with the Spirit and interpret the Bible with the terms it has already defined within its pages. Anyone can write a dictionary, and they often do so with theological prejudice.

 

[Rosenritter]

Because as I understand the Bible 'hell fire' is total and complete separation from God without the possibility of ever changing that.

Talk about being 'tortured' in the 'fire' of understanding eternally remembering that one day you heard the Gospel and rejected it and desperately wanting to change your mind and knowing and understanding that that is impossible.

I could say that hell fire results in total separation from God, because the only way to achieve that is total death. But next question, why do you think that someone would be "desperately wanting to change their mind" but unable? That sounds like a contradiction in terms. If someone "wants to change their mind" then their mind is changed. Are you suggesting God will lock someone's mind so that they are UNABLE to repent after eons of years? Or are you suggesting that one could repent and God would not accept that repentance, preferring to cause infinite misery for a slight eons eternity ago?

 

[Rosenritter]

You do not want the definition of 'eternal' to be 'eternal' take it up with God for He is the one who created language.

"...let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged" (Romans 3:4).

You just spent one hundred keystrokes to AVOID answering the question when four keystrokes would have given your answer. Timotheos answered the question consistently, and his application of "eternal" was the same no matter which question was being answered. It seems to me that your answer is the one that is insincere. Why will you not answer the question?

 

[Rosenritter]

Jesus, Paul, and John teach that the suffering of the lost in hell will know no end.

Sinclair Ferguson is right: it is our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, who spoke most clearly of the dark side of eternity. To be faithful to Him, we must do the same.

I call that bluff. Jesus, Paul, and John do not teach that the suffering of the lost in hell will know no end.

 

[Rosenritter]

You have forgotten much, purposely I suppose, that has affected this discussion in a negative way.

<back on Ignore>

Just realized how nice that must be. It's not as if Cross Reference responds in any intelligent fashion, and he won't answer questions regardless. This way Timotheos gets the last word every time, and all the rest of us can see it happen.

 

[Rosenritter]

It is nearly impossible to get someone who believes in eternal torture to answer a simple question.

Here are my answers:
DEDE

I predict that the tormentists will refuse to answer at all.

So far Timotheos 1, Cross Reference 0.

 

[Cross Reference]

I call that bluff. Jesus, Paul, and John do not teach that the suffering of the lost in hell will know no end.

Obviously you have a reading comprehension skill issue going on within you.

 

[Rosenritter]

Obviously you have a reading comprehension skill issue going on within you.

Fail. When someone challenges on scripture grounds you are supposed to respond by scripture, not typical hot air, insults, and bare assertions.

 

[Timotheos]

Obviously you have a reading comprehension skill issue going on within you.

Let's examine this objectively.

You claimed that a soul cannot die, while Ezekiel 18:4 says that a soul can die.

Yep, it is you that has the reading comprehension problem, not Rosenritter.
If you are able to read, you would know that the soul who sins shall die.

 

[Cross Reference]

Have you accepted my challenge, and is that your question?


Question:

Were not their souls dead because of Adam's transgression????
A: Indirectly, yes.

No. Souls don't die nor can they. Souls were brought into existence indepentent of God with eternal 'DNA' that made them eternally alive. That is what was afforded created man when God "Breathed into the nostrals of Adam" for either for righteousness or unrighteousness.. His soul cannot die!

"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?"

John 10:34 (KJV)

Q: In all those same 4000 yrs of bodies dying, where did the souls of the unrighteous go to await being resurrected?

A: They died, remained in the grave, without love, hatred, envy, or knowledge that they were dead.

Really??!! That would mean their souls did not remain with their bodies. Are you sure you want to be saying that? Where did their soul go?

I know that souls can't die nor remain in any sort of a static condition. They reside somewhere either because of obedience to God in life, within a body of flesh, or separated from Him because they did not obey Him while in a body of flesh...

Q: Why did'nt they come out of the grave along with the righteous and receive glorified bodies as they did?

A: False question, uses flawed assumption, there is no mention that those raised at Christ's death received glorified bodies.

Wrong again. One cannot enter the presence of God without one lest they die. Why do you suppose the Lord had to cover the face of Moses per Ex. 33:19-23 KJV. Read it again, for the first time.

Q: What was the problem? Where are they even to this day?

I believe they perished again naturally, just like Lazarus whom Christ raised and the widow's boy raised by Elijah would have perished again naturally as well. Scripture says that both the saints alive and those perished shall be changed at the same time, see Hebrews 11 below:

Believe as you will however,. ". . it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" Hebrews 9:27 (KJV) So much for dying TWICE.

Heb 11:39-40 KJV
(39) And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
(40) God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

You proposed that some were made perfect without us, Paul says that it does not happen without one another at the same time. Also see 1 Corinthians 15.

???

A: Certainly not paradise because paradise came out of the grave when the righteous resurrected and is now in heaven where Paul was caught up to:

Q: Minor foul, statement does not follow from scripture and is not for purpose of asking a question. Please take care not to make unfounded statements in this exchange.

Cry foul all you want. This is just an excuse for your unlearned thinking.

Now, my turn. For reference, see the passage you cited above in Matthew, "God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." If Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were conscious or aware in any state of contentedness while Jesus spoke, then they would be "alive" and have no need of resurrection.

Why no need for resurrection? Paradise in the earths "abode of the dead" was not their final destination, which they were made aware of by God explaining the issues with them, but a 'holding tank' for the righteous until such time as Jesus would die, shed hIs blood, that would cancel out the penalty for Adam's transgression, His shed blood being the price necessary for payment. Every novice in the scriptures knows that.

Yet Jesus said what he said for the express purpose of proving the necessity of the resurrection. Please explain how that passage proves the resurrection of the dead.

When you explain why you disagree with it, I will.

 

[Cross Reference]

Let's examine this objectively.

You claimed that a soul cannot die, while Ezekiel 18:4 says that a soul can die.

Yep, it is you that has the reading comprehension problem, not Rosenritter.
If you are able to read, you would know that the soul who sins shall die.

Consider yourself devoid of the necessary skill/insight required to "comprehend" the scriptures. . .in this case, what Eze was saying.

No more from you. Please.

 

[Cross Reference]

Fail. When someone challenges on scripture grounds you are supposed to respond by scripture, not typical hot air, insults, and bare assertions.

Then you should not ask readiy recognizable, "loaded questions".

 

[Cross Reference]

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die". Genesis 2:17 (KJV)


Did the soul of Adam die when his body gave out in 935 yrs? Was Adam's soul and therefore man's soul such that it would die in time coinciding with the life of the body or was death to man's soul, something else for man to understand aside from the understanding given him of bodily death?

 

[Rosenritter]

Have you accepted my challenge, and is that your question?

Question:
No. Souls don't die nor can they. Souls were brought into existence indepentent of God with eternal 'DNA' that made them eternally alive. That is what was afforded created man when God "Breathed into the nostrals of Adam" for either for righteousness or unrighteousness.. His soul cannot die!

John 10:34 (KJV)
"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?"

You say "Soul cannot die"
God says in Ezekiel that the soul can die.

You say the proof of this is when Jesus says "Is it not written in your law, I have said, ye are gods?"
Yet God says that these gods shall die like men.

Psa 82:1-8 KJV
(1) <A Psalm of Asaph.> God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
(2) How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
(3) Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
(4) Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
(5) They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
(6) I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
(7) But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
(8) Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.


Your proof failed. It even backfired. The quoted passage says the exact opposite of what you claimed it did, you proved yourself wrong.

That's two strikes so far, and here's the third. Statement of bare assertion without evidence:

Wrong again. One cannot enter the presence of God without one lest they die. Why do you suppose the Lord had to cover the face of Moses per Ex. 33:19-23 KJV. Read it again, for the first time.

So where does it say that those who came out of the tombs when Christ was raised went into the presence of God? That's three strikes for you.

Believe as you will however,. ". . it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" Hebrews 9:27 (KJV) So much for dying TWICE.

It would seem that those raised by Elijah and at the death of Christ were being raised before their appointed time then, wouldn't it? Obviously, if they die thereafter the next resurrection (proper) will be to judgment. We know when the judgment will take place, because this we are told.

"Why no need for resurrection? Paradise in the earths "abode of the dead" was not their final destination, which they were made aware of by God explaining the issues with them, but a 'holding tank' for the righteous until such time as Jesus would die, shed hIs blood, that would cancel out the penalty for Adam's transgression, His shed blood being the price necessary for payment. Every novice in the scriptures knows that."

It may be that a novice in the scripture would agree with you, because they know neither the scriptures, not the power of God. We hear your rhetoric, but show where the scripture says such a thing. Besides this, you haven't answered the question. If Abraham is alive in heaven or some such place, then why would he need to be resurrected for God to be the "God of the living?" He would already be his God of a living Abraham.

 

[Rosenritter]

Consider yourself devoid of the necessary skill/insight required to "comprehend" the scriptures. . .in this case, what Eze was saying.

No more from you. Please.

Shame on your Timotheos, you should know that when Ezekiel and Cross Reference disagree, it's Ezekiel that is wrong!

 

[Rosenritter]

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die". Genesis 2:17 (KJV)


Did the soul of Adam die when his body gave out in 935 yrs? Was Adam's soul and therefore man's soul such that it would die in time coinciding with the life of the body or was death to man's soul, something else for man to understand aside from the understanding given him of bodily death?

Man is a living soul, so yes, the soul called Adam died after nine hundred and thirty years. He's still dead.