Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Rosenritter]

You do not believe Matthew 25:41?

Christ is speaking to human beings: "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

Simple Definition of eternal

: having no beginning and no end in time : lasting forever

: existing at all times : always true or valid

: seeming to last forever

Eternal is eternal.

You should tell that to the Holy Spirit, you know, it would have helped if he had asked you for definitions before he wrote the Bible.

Jude 1:7 KJV
(7) Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

2 Peter 2:6 KJV
(6) And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;



Seems that where eternal fire has taken its toll, it killed the inhabitants, destroyed the cities, and left behind ashes. This is left behind for as as an example of what eternal fire does to the ungodly. Could Peter go out and see people being tortured while kept alive eternally?

Strike again. Holy Spirit wins, your dictionary loses.

 

[Rosenritter]

I do not believe that hell fire is fire the way we know fire in this physical world.

God is a just God.

God said that those who accept Him and His way of Salvation will have everlasting life and enjoy it with Him.

God said that those who reject Him and His way of Salvation will have everlasting death and 'enjoy' it away from Him.

What that everlasting fire is, I'll leave that to God.
But that it is EVERLASTING, that it is.
That it will be everlastingly away from God, that it will be.

If you allow for "enjoy" to mean nothing, that's actually not a bad statement. I have a question for you, not necessarily confrontational even. You said "I do not believe that hell fire is fire the way we know fire in this physical world." Why do you believe that? What reasoning and/or what scripture?

 

[Rosenritter]

There is only one definition of everlasting and that definition is everlasting = lasts for ever and ever and ever....infinitum.

It seems to me that you want everlasting to be everlasting when it is for life, but you want everlasting to have another meaning when it comes to death. Tsk-Tsk. Can no do.

Everlasting is everlasting either for life or for death

I have no idea why this moronic argument is recycled over and over. Life is Good, question time please.

If someone has life that is not everlasting, how long do they live before they die for good?
a) Ten years
b) One hundred years
c) One thousand years
d) Any of the above
e) they never die

If someone has life that is everlasting, how long do they live before they die for good?
a) Ten years
b) One hundred years
c) One thousand years
d) Any of the above
e) they never die

If someone dies a death that is not everlasting, how long do they remain dead before they come back to life?
a) Ten years
b) One hundred years
c) One thousand years
d) They don't know but at some future point they will no longer be dead
e) They never come back to life

If someone dies a death that is everlasting, how long do they remain dead before they come back to life?
a) Ten years
b) One hundred years
c) One thousand years
d) They don't know but at some future point they will no longer be dead
e) They never come back to life

Eternal Conscious Tormentors will seldom answer straight questions when asked. This is a straight question. It's multiple choice, it can be answered with four keystrokes, plus a mouse click on "Post quick reply."

 

[way 2 go]

So to die means to live???

LA

alive and yet dead is possible.
Eph 2:1**And He has made you alive, who were once dead in trespasses and sins,

 

[Rosenritter]

How 'bout it implying a "never ending annihilation" simply because the soul cannot die and the body that 'houses' the soul feels it as a physical experience? This can be no different than the means by which the physical experience will happen in Heaven for the Christian and any other man of faith in God who died on earth, before or after the cross. The soul simply, cannot die.

Except that scripture tells us that the soul does, simply, die.

Ezekiel 18:20-21 KJV
(20) The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
(21) But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

How can you even say such a thing with a straight face? "The soul does not die?" God says that the soul does die. One of you is wrong.

 

[Rosenritter]

Our soul cannot die which makes everything eternal to continue in our lives forever; all eternity and will one day after you and I die, be reunited with our body of dust.

God says you are wrong.

Ezekiel 13:19 KJV
(19) And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies?

Psalms 33:18-19 KJV
(18) Behold, the eye of the LORD is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy;
(19) To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine.

Psalms 78:50 KJV
(50) He made a way to his anger; he spared not their soul from death, but gave their life over to the pestilence;

James 5:19-20 KJV
(19) Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
(20) Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Ezekiel 18:20 KJV
(20) The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

If you continue to be wrong about something that is spelled out so clearly in multiple places, why should we read any further past your boldfaced lie?

It would seem that you don't believe scripture.

 

[way 2 go]

Do you really think one can live forever while having died the second death in the lake of fire?

LA

sure

truth is so simple

eternal conscious punishment
Mat 25:46**And these shall go away into everlasting punishment,

 

[Rosenritter]

alive and yet dead is possible.
Eph 2:1**And He has made you alive, who were once dead in trespasses and sins,

Are they dead in trespasses and sins and alive in that sense at the same time? Don't think so.

 

[Rosenritter]

sure

truth is so simple

eternal conscious punishment
Mat 25:46**And these shall go away into everlasting punishment,

Notice how Way 2 Go adds a word "conscious" to change the meaning? He didn't like it the way it was already written.

Proverbs 30:5-6 KJV
(5) Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
(6) Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Revelation 22:18 KJV
(18) For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

 

[way 2 go]

Are they dead in trespasses and sins and alive in that sense at the same time? Don't think so.

who are they?
what sense?

I was referring to this verse

Eph 2:1**And He has made you alive, who were once dead in trespasses and sins,

the were dead as it says once dead
and they were alive and made alive


:think:



Illegitimate Totality Transfer simply means to illegitimately ( wrongly) transfer a word’s total possible meaning, with all its variations and nuances, and forcing them all into a particular context.

dead has more than one definition
but you only have one definition
so it makes a discussion with any progress
with you impossible.
you will not be persuaded.

Luk 16:30**And he said, No, father Abraham, but if one should go to them from the dead, they would repent.
Luk 16:31**And he said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded, even though one rose from the dead.

 

[Rosenritter]

who are they?
what sense?

I was referring to this verse

Eph 2:1**And He has made you alive, who were once dead in trespasses and sins,

the were dead as it says once dead
and they were alive and made alive


:think:



Illegitimate Totality Transfer simply means to illegitimately ( wrongly) transfer a word’s total possible meaning, with all its variations and nuances, and forcing them all into a particular context.

dead has more than one definition
but you only have one definition
so it makes a discussion with any progress
with you impossible.
you will not be persuaded.

Luk 16:30**And he said, No, father Abraham, but if one should go to them from the dead, they would repent.
Luk 16:31**And he said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded, even though one rose from the dead.

Way, in the last two verses of Lazarus and the rich man, what does it allude to? I am not sure what you mean as it doesn't match your subject.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Who, you ask? There's an interesting collection of examples here from which I will borrow a couple:

Bishop Newcomb


“The door of mercy will be shut and all bowels of compassion denied, by God, who will laugh at their destruction; by angels and saints, who will rejoice when they see the vengeance' by their fellow-suffer the devil and the damned rejoicing over their misery.” Catechetical Sermons


Tertullian


“At that greatest of all spectacles, that last and eternal judgment how shall I admire, how laugh, how rejoice, how exult, when I behold so many proud monarchs groaning in the lowest abyss of darkness; so many magistrates liquefying in fiercer flames than they ever kindled against the Christians; so many sages philosophers blushing in red-hot fires with their deluded pupils; so many tragedians more tuneful in the expression of their own sufferings; so many dancers tripping more nimbly from anguish then ever before from applause."


“What a spectacle. . .when the world. . .and its many products, shall be consumed in one great flame! How vast a spectacle then bursts upon the eye! What there excites my admiration? What my derision? Which sight gives me joy? As I see. . .illustrious monarchs. . . groaning in the lowest darkness, Philosophers. . .as fire consumes them! Poets trembling before the judgment-seat of. . .Christ! I shall hear the tragedians, louder-voiced in their own calamity; view play-actors. . .in the dissolving flame; behold wrestlers, not in their gymnasia, but tossing in the fiery billows. . .What inquisitor or priest in his munificence will bestow on you the favor of seeing and exulting in such things as these? Yet even now we in a measure have them by faith in the picturings of imagination.” [De Spectaculis, Chapter XXX]


Augustine


“They who shall enter into [the] joy [of the Lord] shall know what is going on outside in the outer darkness. . .The saints'. . . knowledge, which shall be great, shall keep them acquainted. . .with the eternal sufferings of the lost.” [The City of God, Book 20, Chapter 22, "What is Meant by the Good Going Out to See the Punishment of the Wicked" & Book 22, Chapter 30, "Of the Eternal Felicity of the City of God, and of the Perpetual Sabbath"]


Thomas Aquinas


In order that the happiness of the saints may be more delightful to them and that they may render more copious thanks to God for it, they are allowed to see perfectly the sufferings of the damned. . .So that they may be urged the more to praise God. . .The saints in heaven know distinctly all that happens. . .to the damned. [Summa Theologica, Third Part, Supplement, Question XCIV, "Of the Relations of the Saints Towards the Damned," First Article, "Whether the Blessed in Heaven Will See the Sufferings of the Damned. . ."]


“The same fire” (which he decides to be material) “ torments the damned in hell and the just in purgatory…The least pain in purgatory exceeds the greatest in this life.” Summa Theo. Suppl. Qu. 100, acts. 2, n. 3.


Jonathan Edwards


“The view of the misery of the damned will double the ardour of the love and gratitude of the saints of heaven.”


The sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever. . .Can the believing father in Heaven be happy with his unbelieving children in Hell. . . I tell you, yea! Such will be his sense of justice that it will increase rather than diminish his bliss.


["The Eternity of Hell Torments" (Sermon), April 1739 & Discourses on Various Important Subjects, 1738]

* * *

Tell me, does it seem like these men hear the voice of the Lamb, or have they hardened their hearts?

I had no idea so many were so sick and demented.

LA

 

[Timotheos]

My kind, eh? Let it be from me that you are Spiritually deaf. You 'need' the meaning of the word as you have to remain as you have it. Your religious bent depends upon your success.

Both life and death are experiences, a crossing over, if you will. EVER-LASTING life being an experience of never ending life as in "lasting forever". Same for death. It is a forever "experience" starting with the rejection of God while still breathing the breath of Life while with the living upon Earth. That is the beginning of its journey for all eternity and it will never end for that one eternally separated from God..

Side Note: What do you think of "everlasting hope"? Does that fit your scenario?

I knew that you would be unable to produce any post where I supposedly said that everlasting is not forever. As I predicted you are squirming out of showing any proof of your lie about me. It just shows that the truth isn't important to you.

Everlasting hope is hope that lasts forever. Is that Really so difficult to understand?

 

[Cross Reference]

I knew that you would be unable to produce any post where I supposedly said that everlasting is not forever. As I predicted you are squirming out of showing any proof of your lie about me. It just shows that the truth isn't important to you.

Everlasting hope is hope that lasts forever. Is that Really so difficult to understand?

I haven't lied about anything or anyone on this forum, EVER!

 

[Cross Reference]

Jesus said: "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."] Matthew 22:32 (KJV)

This was spoken by Jesus before going to the cross; before entering paradise for setting free the souls of men who had died in righteousness but nevertheless remained captive by the Devil because of the sin of Adam, all of this being a part of the curse placed upon man for Adam's transgression. Many of these souls [The Bible calls them souls because what else could they be since their bodies had decayed to dust] had been there for 4000 yrs +/-, making them to be that old. This place of paradise [Abraham's bosom] was prepared by God to keep them in His care to await the shedding of the blood of Jesus that would set them free to His Holy Presence.

Up until that point in time were they the souls of men seperated from their bodies. Upon Jesus' descending into the grave, the abode of the dead, were they resurrected along with Him after 3 days and many were seen in the streets of Jerusalem. Living souls reunited with their now glorified bodies that CAN NEVER taste death again!!

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" John 11:25-26 (KJV)


Question: Were not their souls dead because of Adam's transgression???? In all those same 4000 yrs of bodies dying, where did the souls of the unrighteous go to await being resurrected? Why did'nt they come out of the grave along with the righteous and receive glorified bodies as they did? What was the problem? Where are they even to this day? Certainly not paradise because paradise came out of the grave when the righteous resurrected and is now in heaven where Paul was caught up to:

"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth how that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter." 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 (KJV)

 

[Timotheos]

I haven't lied about anything or anyone on this forum, EVER!

You falsely claimed that I said that everlasting doesn't mean forever.
I never said that.
When I asked you to show me the post where I said "everlasting doesn't mean forever" you were unable to do it. Now that I know that you lie, I won't believe anything you say.

When you get caught in a lie, do not try to cover it up. It just makes it worse. Apologize to the person you lied about and move on.

 

[Timotheos]

Mr. Reference, Here is your LIE:

You have consistently stated that everlasting does not mean forever as you have made eternal as not being forever.

I never ONCE stated that everlasting does not mean forever.
You NEVER showed even ONE post of mine that says everlasting does not mean forever.
This makes you a liar.

 

[Cross Reference]

You falsely claimed that I said that everlasting doesn't mean forever.
I never said that.
When I asked you to show me the post where I said "everlasting doesn't mean forever" you were unable to do it. Now that I know that you lie, I won't believe anything you say.

When you get caught in a lie, do not try to cover it up. It just makes it worse. Apologize to the person you lied about and move on.

Ypu need to get off the kool-aid. The only reason you keep beating your broken drum is because you have no honest replies to my honest and sincere questions. Try once more, for the first time.

 

[Timotheos]

Ypu need to get off the kool-aid. The only reason you keep beating your broken drum is because you have no honest replies to my honest and sincere questions. Try once more, for the first time.

Don't tell me about honest answers after I caught you lying.
All of my answers are honest and you are a liar.

 

[Cross Reference]

< ignore button "on" >