I thought I wrote that I believe as you now do. I even quoted you.
Yes, you did. I'm glad that you repented of your belief in eternal conscious torment and you now believe the Bible.
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
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Yes, you did. I'm glad that you repented of your belief in eternal conscious torment and you now believe the Bible.
Cross Reference
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I think it is pretty obvious they can't hear His 'everlasting', 'eternal' voice. Given their accusations, I don't wonder why.
Everlasting death is the opposite of everlasting life in hell being tortured alive.
If you truly do believe what you just said you believe, then we believe the same thing. If you still believe in eternal conscious torture in hell, then you do not believe that those who do not trust God will go to their everlasting death.
lifeisgood
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God does NOT torture anybody.
God prepared a place for Satan and his minions and Satan and his minions are tortured each and every second of his eternal life because they NOW know what they rejected and cannot get back ever.
It is NOT that God does anything bad to them.
It is that THEY did and received in themselves the just judgment of their decision. The same will occur with those who reject God's plan of Salvation.
No, I believe what Christ Jesus said in Matthew 25:41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." If I continue reading, Christ Jesus was speaking to those who were against His own.
Physical death, yes.
Spiritual death, no; for when a person dies physically, he/she continues on spiritually, then comes the judgment. Hopefully, you will be in the Judgment of the Seat of Christ and not in the Great White Throne Judgment.
Here, while we are still physically alive, is where we make our choice, eternal death or eternal life, and Christ Jesus and His legal finished work on the Cross of Calvary being the very narrow way to get to eternal life and very few accept Him and His work.
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That is NOT what you have been saying. Please explain how you believe the word "everlasting" can take on different meanings . . on a whim?
I agree. According to the Bible the wages of sin is death, not eternal conscious torture in hell.
It doesn't. A person who is dead forever is in the state of everlasting death.
Is English your second language?
lifeisgood
New member
You do not believe Matthew 25:41?
Christ is speaking to human beings: "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
Simple Definition of eternal
: having no beginning and no end in time : lasting forever
: existing at all times : always true or valid
: seeming to last forever
Eternal is eternal.
lifeisgood
New member
So, you reject what Christ Jesus said:
Luke 16:19-24 --- “Now there was a certain rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, gaily living in splendor every day. And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. Now it came about that the poor man died and he was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away, and Lazarus in his bosom.”
Matthew 5:29 --- “And if your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell (the word used for ‘hell’ here is ‘Gehenna’).”
It is NOT that God does anything bad to them.
It is that THEY did and received in themselves the just judgment of their decision. The same will occur with those who reject God's plan of Salvation.
No.
Yes, I believe Matthew 25:41.
I believe that the fire burns up whatever is put into it. Who said I don't believe Matthew 25:41?
Don't you believe that the fire burns up what is put into it?
Don't you believe John 3:16?
I don't reject what Christ said.
Since He said in Matthew 10:28 that those sent to Gehenna will be destroyed there, both body and soul, I believe Him. Don't you believe Jesus?
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Apparently you must believe so because you don't understand.
"the person who is alive forever is in a state of everlasting life". Your words, not mine.
But now it seems you have it that the word "everlasting" has two different meanings. One when speaking of "everlasting Life" and the other when speaking of "everlasting death". Does it not have the same meaning in each case? Does whatever dictionary you and 'rats' are using, reveal that?
lifeisgood
New member
Matthew 10:28 say that there will be 'body' and 'soul' in hell being destroyed.
'destroy' does not mean 'annihilation'.
lifeisgood
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I do not believe that hell fire is fire the way we know fire in this physical world.
God is a just God.
God said that those who accept Him and His way of Salvation will have everlasting life and enjoy it with Him.
God said that those who reject Him and His way of Salvation will have everlasting death and 'enjoy' it away from Him.
What that everlasting fire is, I'll leave that to God.
But that it is EVERLASTING, that it is.
That it will be everlastingly away from God, that it will be.
lifeisgood
New member
There is only one definition of everlasting and that definition is everlasting = lasts for ever and ever and ever....infinitum.
It seems to me that you want everlasting to be everlasting when it is for life, but you want everlasting to have another meaning when it comes to death. Tsk-Tsk. Can no do.
Everlasting is everlasting either for life or for death
Cross Reference
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How 'bout it implying a "never ending annihilation" simply because the soul cannot die and the body that 'houses' the soul feels it as a physical experience? This can be no different than the means by which the physical experience will happen in Heaven for the Christian and any other man of faith in God who died on earth, before or after the cross. The soul simply, cannot die.
lifeisgood
New member
Timotheos is thinking of the body as in the 'physical' way and not the way you're thinking about it.
That is why he rejects the possibility of the (physical) body in everlasting torment in hell and have changed the meaning of 'everlasting' to fit his mode of thinking about everlasting death.
Cross Reference
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But I am also thinking of the body in a physical way. Upon the second resurrection and after the judgment seat of God that will reveal the hearts of the many who stand before the Lord and have the names checked out, all souls and bodies will forever be united and proceed to their respective destinations. I believe that for this to be so God will return to the damned their originsl 'loaned out human spirits' [breath of life] that I also believe will be needed to reunite body and soul, the born again already possessing their NEW SPIRIT.
Please ask me to clarify if you don't understand, I am not etching this in stone.
WonderfulLordJesus
New member
Matthew 25
41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels...
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Mark 9
42 But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea.
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched ---
44 where 'Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.'
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched ---
46 where 'Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.'
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire ---
48 where 'Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.'
Revelation 14
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
Revalation 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Luke 12
4 "And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!"
Luke 16
19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.
20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,
21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,
28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'
29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'
30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "
41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels...
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Mark 9
42 But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea.
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched ---
44 where 'Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.'
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched ---
46 where 'Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.'
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire ---
48 where 'Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.'
Revelation 14
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
Revalation 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Luke 12
4 "And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!"
Luke 16
19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.
20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,
21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,
28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'
29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'
30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "
Wasn't it you that made the brass claim that I do not believe Matthew 25:41?
Do you wish to retract that bold statement? Matthew 25:41 does NOT say that the fire is somehow an ineffectual fire that can't even manage to burn up what is put into it. So, EXACTLY in WHAT WAY do I NOT believe Matthew 25:41? It seems to me that I believe what it says MORE than YOU do, since you do not believe that the fire is really fire at all!