Rosenritter
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When someone says "The scripture does not say that" then THAT is a "loaded question?" Seriously?
I'll repeat, John, Jesus, and Paul do not say that souls will be tormented for an eternity. Put up or shut up.
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
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When someone says "The scripture does not say that" then THAT is a "loaded question?" Seriously?
I'll repeat, John, Jesus, and Paul do not say that souls will be tormented for an eternity. Put up or shut up.
Cross Reference
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No! You put up or shut up! Where do you get your thinking they won't except from some 2 bit writer who said so???? YOU give the scripture that supports YOUR assertion???!! You ***!
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Again, <willful ignorance at its peak performance>
But I am forgetting myself that I hit the Ignore button a while back.
I will try not to forget that this idiot not have me for his audience.
I apoloogize to everyone for losing my cool with this jerk. You have my permission to hold me accountable for any future forgetfulness in this matter..
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WonderfulLordJesus
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Matthew 25
41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels...
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Mark 9
42 But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea.
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched ---
44 where 'Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.'
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched ---
46 where 'Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.'
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire ---
48 where 'Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.'
Revelation 14
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
Revalation 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Luke 12
4 "And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!"
Luke 16
19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.
20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,
21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,
28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'
29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'
30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "
41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels...
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Mark 9
42 But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea.
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched ---
44 where 'Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.'
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched ---
46 where 'Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.'
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire ---
48 where 'Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.'
Revelation 14
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
Revalation 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Luke 12
4 "And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!"
Luke 16
19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.
20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,
21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,
28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'
29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'
30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "
Rosenritter
New member
Strike four, asking me to prove a negative. I assert that your words are false, Jesus, Paul, and and John do not say that souls will live for an eternity while being tortured without end. Regardless, here's that "two-bit writer" here:
Joh 3:16 KJV
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
"Perish" is a very clearly understood word. It means to die, and is the opposite of life.
Rosenritter
New member
Rosenritter
New member
Dear Wonderful,
I happen to already be familiar with the flawed arguments made from the same five proof texts from the Eternal Conscious Torment worship crowd. I won't do you the disservice of assuming that you are making such arguments unless I hear it from your own words. If you have something you would like to say, please speak up. Just be prepared to have your statements compared against other scripture, and also to answer questions when asked.
I happen to already be familiar with the flawed arguments made from the same five proof texts from the Eternal Conscious Torment worship crowd. I won't do you the disservice of assuming that you are making such arguments unless I hear it from your own words. If you have something you would like to say, please speak up. Just be prepared to have your statements compared against other scripture, and also to answer questions when asked.
WonderfulLordJesus
New member
God's word speaks for itself. I don't need to go around in circles, blabbering about it, don't need to add anything. It is you who are stuck in the position, of necessity, having to blabber away and try to deconstruct simple and clear Bible truths. Like the cult false prophets who taught soul sleep, annihilation, and many other false doctrines, they have to twist and spin truth, create this muck from their own words and philosophies, they also having to do all that blabbering you do. It's a veritable pattern of deception, a little scripture, a lot of deconstruction talk, a snippet of Thee, and a mountain of me. And what you're trying to sell is the stuff of well known cults, thoroughly debunked.
I presented scripture. Those with eyes to see and ears to hear see and hear. Others need to repent and get saved, so they may see and hear. That's all. You could spare yourself a lot of effort and just say that you don't believe the Bible, as you're not fooling anybody but those already in delusion, who believe the lie(s). Neither do I need to talk myself into what I believe, page after page on some message board, when God has spoken so clearly. You need to take your objections up with God.
I have nothing further to say as to His doctrine of hell, nor should I. In addition, I have no desire to debate unbelievers: rather than spend much time in a room of flat earthers, I'd prefer to have a conversation with somebody who recognizes the earth is a globe, in the first place. I don't mind if you want to talk about how you believe in Batman or the Green Hornet with anybody willing to go there, nothing better to do, but just not with me. Also, anybody can Google the whole, slimy debate, in every detail, and get a better presentation than this sorry morass, that would leave a high school debate team squirming and looking at their watches. As for me, I don't see it profitable, to try and reinvent God’s wheel. Fair enough?
Rosenritter
New member
Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. I understand that you have no intention of answering questions by scripture. But in so doing you deny the simple words of Jesus,
John 3:16 KJV
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
I suppose that becomes impossible for you to understand while blinded with so much hatred.
Cross Reference
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< yawn >
way 2 go
Well-known member
:yawn:
way 2 go
Well-known member
eternal conscious punishment
Mat 25:46**And these shall go away into everlasting punishment,
I quoted the verse as written with an explanation
I said conscious because your aggressively ignorant
and still not interested in truth
Luk 16:19-31
Jesus reveals
already known truths such as
consciousness of the departed,
fire for the unrepentant to stand in,
a protected place with Abraham right next to the unpleasant place,
and he caps it off with
the place of torment is historical
made known to people by
Moses and the Prophets
way 2 go
Well-known member
which verse is a lie ?
consciousness of the departed,
fire for the unrepentant to stand in
Luk 16:24**And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
consciousness of the departed,
a protected place with Abraham right next to the unpleasant place,
Luk 16:26**And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
consciousness of the departed,
fire for the unrepentant to stand in
Luk 16:28**For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
the place of torment is historical
made known to people by
Moses and the Prophets
and if you do not believe them
you will not believe one rising from the dead.
Luk 16:31**And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
God did say He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but the so called experts keep saying He does.
"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" John 11:25-26 (KJV)
This verse is only saying that those who believe in Him will never die AFTER they are raised from the dead and inherit eternal life.
LA
"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" John 11:25-26 (KJV)
This verse is only saying that those who believe in Him will never die AFTER they are raised from the dead and inherit eternal life.
LA
These verses do not support that the situation descripted continues into eternity.
No verses can change other verses--
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
LA
Rosenritter
New member
Sometimes other verses help to demonstrate bad assumptions made about what verses might mean. Have you noticed that the eternal conscious torment argument recently wants everything interpreted in a vacuum, with their imagining being the deciding factor?
Isaiah 28:9-10 KJV
Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. [10] For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
That is how scripture is meant to be read.
Rosenritter
New member
So you if you had a passage that said Eternal conscious punishment you would have posted it. But you didn't, so you had to add the word Conscious yourself?
... "Because I am not interested in the truth?" come again? You are like the evolutionist that rationalizes faking hybrid skeletons by filing teeth and calling them half monkey. Because those stupid Christians are so ignorant but you don't HAVE any transitional fossils. So you cheat. It's all our fault for being so stupid, right? We force you to cheat.
You disagree with the Bible which states that a soul can die, You are wrong and the Bible is right. Consider yourself wrong and God right.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.