Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Rosenritter]

Yes, he was dead. The Bible says so: “This son of mine was dead and is alive again” (Luke 15:24).

Here is an example when you do not agree with the Bible.

When God speaks in plain language directly, we know this is true. When God speaks by his prophets and inspired writers in plain language directly, we know this is true. Yet inspired writers can even use metaphor, and parable, and story, and some of the characters that are quoted in the Bible do not speak with authority, or actually lie (such as the serpent in the garden, "Ye shall not surely die.")

What you reference is a fictional character that only exists within a parable, and even then he is obviously speaking in metaphor because the factual elements of the parable say the son was alive. Is that seriously your charge that Timotheos "does not believe the Bible?"

 

[Cross Reference]

Why are you posting that here when you lead with a denial of the scriptural message of "The soul that sinneth it shall die" and instead champion the serpent's lie of "Ye shall not surely die?"

Why? Because your understanding is Satanic in origin. What I posited should cause joy in anyone's heart who is looking for hope in this life and for the next..

 

[Rosenritter]

The Bible says that all those who have died—both righteous and wicked—will be raised to life in one of two resurrections.

The righteous will be raised to life at Jesus’ second coming. “ For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16, NKJV).

The wicked are raised to life in a separate resurrection—the resurrection of condemnation. Jesus said, “Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.” (John 5:28, 29, NKJV).

The wicked are said to suffer “shame” and “everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2).

In Matthew 10:28 Christ spoke of both body and soul being “destroyed” in hell. “Destroyed” is from the term apollumi, an intensified verbal form hinting of “utter destruction.” Annihilationists interpret this as meaning “going out of existence,” but the word does not imply that, as the consultation of a Greek concordance will reveal. Homer employed the term of a city demolished or laid waste (Iliad 5.648). In the New Testament the term might be used of old, cracked wineskins (Matthew 9:17), fading beauty (James 1:11), spoiled food (John 6:27), or a lost sheep (Luke 15:4). (https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1329-resurrection-of-the-wicked-the)

Jesus describes the punishment of hell as a condition “where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:48).

You were doing great until that last part, and there your logic fell to pieces.

A city that Homer describes as "destroyed" that is demolished or laid waste is no longer a city. But you aren't providing context for that so the claim is less relevant. let's focus on the Biblical examples.

ONE: Old wine skins that burst because the leather is cracked and decayed are destroyed. They do not hold wine, and they decompose into dust being consumed by rats, worms, and bacteria. Where are those wine skins now? Are they eternal wine skins?

Two: Fading beauty isn't even the right approximation of the passage in James.

Jas 1:10-11 KJV
(10) But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away.
(11) For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways.

Have you ever seen what happens to grass that withers? It becomes completely destroyed, rendered to dust, converted into soil and consumed by earthworms. Again, your chosen examples fight against you.

Three: Lost sheep, Luke 15:4. What do you suppose happens to a lost sheep that does not come home? There are these creatures called wolves, and bears, and lions. David himself killed a lion and a bear while defending sheep. Do you know what would have happened to that sheep if David hadn't had been there? Lamb chops. Digested. Annihilated. Consumed. And the bones and hooves and wool would not be eternal to survive to this day. Even if someone did save a hoof and preserve it in amber it is NOT the lamb any longer.

Four: Have you never seen worms consume a corpse? I have. I haven't sit still and watched it, but when the body is by the roadside day after day you notice a change. It smells. And then it bloats. Then it finally bursts. Maggots (the worm) consume it. If you leave the worms to their task they eat pretty much all of it except the bones and a little bit of fur and grease. Then the dog rolls in the grease and comes back horrendously stinky. But if you go back later the fur is gone, the bones are gone, they have been eaten and decayed. It's annihilated.

If you wanted to save that body in some fashion, you would have to terminate the worms (the maggots) to prevent them from eating the corpse. And if you had this body on a funeral pyre instead of lying on the roadside, you would have to quench the flame to stop it from burning the remains. If the worm dies not and the flame is not quenched then the remains are completely destroyed.

 

[Rosenritter]

Why? Because your understanding is Satanic in origin. What I posited should cause joy in anyone's heart who is looking for hope in life and for the next..

Let's see. This is your position:

Gen 3:4 KJV
(4) And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

You share this foundation from the serpent, the father of lies, and proclaim that God does not grant eternal life to the righteous, and that the wicked shall not die.

And this is my position:

Eze 33:11 KJV
(11) Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Joh 3:15-16 KJV
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.





Are Ezekiel and John Satantic in origin? I think that the serpent is Satanic in origin. Your words approach blasphemy.

 

[Cross Reference]

Let's see. This is your position:

No. That is your position. A very dangerous one, to be sure.

 

[lifeisgood]

What you reference is a fictional character that only exists within a parable, and even then he is obviously speaking in metaphor because the factual elements of the parable say the son was alive. Is that seriously your charge that Timotheos "does not believe the Bible?"

As your neg rep stated, Rosenritter "Absurdly stupid spam."

 

[lifeisgood]

You were doing great until that last part, and there your logic fell to pieces.

Praise God I do not need your approval. Neither you need mine.

 

[Rosenritter]

As your neg rep stated, Rosenritter "Absurdly stupid spam."

When you repeat the same thing eight times it resembles spam. When what you repeat a fictional character saying "My son was dead and now he is alive" and insist "Timotheos does not believe the Bible" it resembles absurdly stupid.

If it had been intelligent spam I would have said just "spam" ... And if it was just stupid I wouldn't have concerned myself, as that is par for the course in these threads. It was the combination that I was complaining about.

 

[Rosenritter]

No. That is your position. A very dangerous one, to be sure.

Thank you Pee Wee Herman.

 

[lifeisgood]

When you repeat the same thing eight times it resembles spam. When what you repeat a fictional character saying "My son was dead and now he is alive" and insist "Timotheos does not believe the Bible" it resembles absurdly stupid.

If it had been intelligent spam I would have said just "spam" ... And if it was just stupid I wouldn't have concerned myself, as that is par for the course in these threads. It was the combination that I was complaining about.

I can see you also disagree with “This son of mine was dead and is alive again” (Luke 15:24).

 

[Rosenritter]

I can see you also disagree with “This son of mine was dead and is alive again” (Luke 15:24).

Apparently Jesus disagreed with you also, because he described the son as alive, feeding pigs, fain to starve, and deciding to return home. It's Christ's parable, let him describe it as he will. I can scarcely believe the idiocy of your accusation.

It may be that "My son was dead, and now he is alive" might hint at another meaning as well, but the story character of the prodigal son never died throughout the story.

 

[way 2 go]

Judges 9:8-10 KJV
(8) The trees went forth on a time to anoint a king over them; and they said unto the olive tree, Reign thou over us.
(9) But the olive tree said unto them, Should I leave my fatness, wherewith by me they honour God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees?
(10) And the trees said to the fig tree, Come thou, and reign over us.


Which of those verses is a lie, Way 2 Go? Do you even understand the meaning of the word "parable?"

knew you were not interested in truth



Jesus revealed truths in Luke 16

consciousness of the departed,
fire for the unrepentant to stand in

Luk 16:24**And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

consciousness of the departed,
a protected place with Abraham right next to the unpleasant place,


Luk 16:26**And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

consciousness of the departed,
fire for the unrepentant to stand in


Luk 16:28**For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

the place of torment is historical
made known to people by
Moses and the Prophets
and if you do not believe them
you will not believe one rising from the dead.


Luk 16:31**And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

 

[Rosenritter]

knew you were not interested in truth



Jesus revealed truths in Luke 16

consciousness of the departed,
fire for the unrepentant to stand in

Luk 16:24**And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

consciousness of the departed,
a protected place with Abraham right next to the unpleasant place,


Luk 16:26**And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

consciousness of the departed,
fire for the unrepentant to stand in


Luk 16:28**For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

the place of torment is historical
made known to people by
Moses and the Prophets
and if you do not believe them
you will not believe one rising from the dead.


Luk 16:31**And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

If it is a true story Way 2 Go, then why is Abraham the Lord of Hell listening to the prayers of the damned? And how come there is no judgment? If Jesus was revealing "never known before truths" that contradicted all previous scripture, he wouldn't do so in one isolated parable. Take caution, for the god of evil and cruelty is not going to win in the end, and who then will reward you?

 

[freelight]

df

I can see you also disagree with “This son of mine was dead and is alive again” (Luke 15:24).

It never ceases to amaze how far some people take 'figurative' language.

Terms such as 'life' and 'death' are also more or less figurative in some contexts, but these two are clearly presented in the Bible as conditions man can choose, and the results of his choices can lead to either one in an ultimate sense. When it comes to LIFE...the highest ultimate condition of such is 'immortality', that putting on of the very nature of God himself, and it is really only when man puts on immortality, that he can never die. All else that is 'mortal' is subject to disintegration.

 

[freelight]

Getting REAL......

Getting REAL......

If it is a true story Way 2 Go, then why is Abraham the Lord of Hell listening to the prayers of the damned? And how come there is no judgment? If Jesus was revealing "never known before truths" that contradicted all previous scripture, he wouldn't do so in one isolated parable. Take caution, for the god of evil and cruelty is not going to win in the end, and who then will reward you?

Its amazing a book with some authors saying 'God is love' has other authors saying that God is not :idunno: - you have a potpourri of information about a bi-polar god.

 

[Rosenritter]

Its amazing a book with some authors saying 'God is love' has other authors saying that God is not :idunno: - you have a potpourri of information about a bi-polar god.

The book that we are talking about doesn't say "God is not love" - that would be Way 2 Go whose twisted theology demands that interpretation. The "god of evil and cruelty" is the one that he has imagined that grants eternal life to the wicked so that he can torment them without end. The actual "god of evil and cruelty" is known as Satan, the devil, which would like you to believe that God in heaven is as he is, so that he might blacken his name and turn mortal man against their maker.

 

[Cross Reference]

There's that sulfur smelling hot air again.

 

[Timotheos]

There's that sulfur smelling hot air again.

Good Morning Crossy

 

[way 2 go]

If it is a true story Way 2 Go, then why is Abraham the Lord of Hell listening to the prayers of the damned?

show Jesus calling "Abraham the Lord of Hell"
otherwise your lying about Jesus and making a straw man
for yourself to argue against

And how come there is no judgment?

If Jesus was revealing "never known before truths" that contradicted all previous scripture,

in which verse did Jesus lie ?

consciousness of the departed,
fire for the unrepentant to stand in

Luk 16:24**And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

consciousness of the departed,
a protected place with Abraham right next to the unpleasant place,


Luk 16:26**And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Take caution, for the god of evil and cruelty is not going to win in the end, and who then will reward you?

you will not be persuaded by the words of Jesus.
...lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29**Abraham said to him, They have Moses and the Prophets, let them hear them.
...
Luk 16:31**And he said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded, even though one rose from the dead.

 

[way 2 go]

Its amazing a book with some authors saying 'God is love' has other authors saying that God is not :idunno: - you have a potpourri of information about a bi-polar god.

You blame God but you condemn yourself
You are the one who reads Jesus words and
answer no you do not believe all Jesus said.


Joh 3:18**He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.

Joh 3:19**And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil.