:rotfl:
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
marhig
Well-known member
The portion of your comments which I have highlighted in red are TRUE, Paul had indeed heard it firsthand; and yet here he is, back from the dead, writing about it for all to read. Think about that: how is it that he is telling you all of these things if he does not know them for facts? How does he speak with such authority if he has not undergone the transformation of which we speak? How is it that he tells you that he knows the terror of the Master? (have I not told you the same?). And by the same token how is it that Enoch was taken, and yet wrote down what he saw when he was taken, after the fact? And those who believe Jude know that he calls Enoch a prophet so please do not offer up the same old line that you do not accept the book of Enoch just because the so-called church fathers decided to anathematize the book. Howbeit the main point is not whether or not Enoch should be canon but the fact that the epistle of Jude calls Enoch a prophet, and quotes from the book of Enoch, and yet Enoch could not have been written by Enoch if Enoch was taken and never returned. Therefore Enoch was taken, as the scripture says, and Enoch was transformed, as the scripture says, but that does not mean he was taken up in the flesh never to be seen again like most of Christianity seems to believe. This is only example number one: Paul also was taken, that is, "caught up", and he too was transformed like Enoch, and he likewise expounds this event in 2 Cor 12:1-4. Why therefore do none of you so-called Christians believe him? for if indeed you believed him you would incorporate his teachings into your own doctrines. Those who believe in a so-called "rapture" always separate this vision of Paul out of the equation in their doctrine even though Paul uses the same word harpazo multiple times in the passage. And why do they do this? Because it refutes their own fantasy doctrine of being caught away in the flesh never to be seen again. As for the rest it has already been answered before you even brought it up: again, All flesh is not the same flesh...if there is a soma psuchikos natural physical body then there is a soma pneumatikos ethereal spiritual body. You do not recognize your own soma-pneumatikos-spiritual-body and therefore you do not sow toward that body in your doctrine even though Paul admonishes you to do so. Both Enoch and Paul therefore underwent their own transformations, BEFORE the physical death of the physical body, just as I have also tried to explain in other ways. Your physical body will perish one day: then what will you have? If you do not change your thinking you will not end up very bright as a star.
I agree, as I was going through these posts thought of these verses, before I read this post!
1 Corinthians 15
There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body..And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made.a quickening spirit..Howbeit that.was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual..The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is.the Lord from heaven. As is.the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is.the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly...
The word of God is sown in a natural body and raised in a spiritual body. We are the natural body that the seed is sown in, but when it is raised by the spirit of God we then walk in the spirit, being a temple not made at the hand of man, but by the hand of God we then become a spiritual body bearing the image of the heavenly, which is the image of God through Christ in our lives.
If we keep a seed in a dark cupboard it won't grow, it needs to be planted in soft soil, and it needs the sun and the rain for it to grow. We need to be of soft earth for the seed to be planted deep. This is the only time a man is involved. At the time of planting, these are God's people sharing the word of God. Once in the right conditions the seed grows without any interference from man. Once the seed is planted, we must then be enlightened by the light shining into our hearts for us receive the word of God for cleansing and refreshing to be raised with Christ. If we stay in the dark, we won't grow in God.
The resurrection begins here and now, not when we die.
Colossians 3
If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Ephesians 2
And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus
If we are raised with Christ, then God will be our focus, and the wants of the flesh and the world will be dying and our hearts will be refreshed and cleansed by the spirit daily, putting our old man to death, watering the seed and as the tree grows the fruits appear. All this is done by the hand of God. The hand of man can't touch the things of God, as he corrupts his word. God is a living God, and he feeds us fresh every day. He tends to us, cuts us back and feeds us so that we become strong and healthy in the ways of God.
Without God, were dead men in the flesh walking after our own lusts, with God were dead to the flesh and walking in the spirit with God.
We have a choice, as Joshua said choose you this day whom you serve, I choose the lord my God andi follow his holy son Jesus Christ and the way is narrow and we are tried with fire but worth it, and God strengthens us! A potter can't use a pot until it has been through the kiln. Like us, we are strengthened by going through the fiery trials, and as we suffer and deny the temptations of Satan, God strengthens us to overcome. Jesus said have no fear, for I have overcome the world, he came by example and showed us the perfect way!
I'm enjoying reading your posts,
I don't understand what people mean flesh going to heaven? No flesh enters into heaven, God is spirit, and when we die, our spirit goes back to God and this flesh goes back to the dust.Ecclesiastes 12
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
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Actually, they do. 2 Peter 3:7 for example says that judgment day is the day of destruction of the ungodly.
Rosenritter
New member
Where did you see someone talk about being resurrected into heaven on this board?I agree, as I was going through these posts thought of these verses, before I read this post!
1 Corinthians 15
There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body..And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made.a quickening spirit..Howbeit that.was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual..The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is.the Lord from heaven. As is.the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is.the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly...
The word of God is sown in a natural body and raised in a spiritual body. We are the natural body that the seed is sown in, but when it is raised by the spirit of God we then walk in the spirit, being a temple not made at the hand of man, but by the hand of God we then become a spiritual body bearing the image of the heavenly, which is the image of God through Christ in our lives.
If we keep a seed in a dark cupboard it won't grow, it needs to be planted in soft soil, and it needs the sun and the rain for it to grow. We need to be of soft earth for the seed to be planted deep. This is the only time a man is involved. At the time of planting, these are God's people sharing the word of God. Once in the right conditions the seed grows without any interference from man. Once the seed is planted, we must then be enlightened by the light shining into our hearts for us receive the word of God for cleansing and refreshing to be raised with Christ. If we stay in the dark, we won't grow in God.
The resurrection begins here and now, not when we die.
Colossians 3
If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Ephesians 2
And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus
If we are raised with Christ, then God will be our focus, and the wants of the flesh and the world will be dying and our hearts will be refreshed and cleansed by the spirit daily, putting our old man to death, watering the seed and as the tree grows the fruits appear. All this is done by the hand of God. The hand of man can't touch the things of God, as he corrupts his word. God is a living God, and he feeds us fresh every day. He tends to us, cuts us back and feeds us so that we become strong and healthy in the ways of God.
Without God, were dead men in the flesh walking after our own lusts, with God were dead to the flesh and walking in the spirit with God.
We have a choice, as Joshua said choose you this day whom you serve, I choose the lord my God andi follow his holy son Jesus Christ and the way is narrow and we are tried with fire but worth it, and God strengthens us! A potter can't use a pot until it has been through the kiln. Like us, we are strengthened by going through the fiery trials, and as we suffer and deny the temptations of Satan, God strengthens us to overcome. Jesus said have no fear, for I have overcome the world, he came by example and showed us the perfect way!
I'm enjoying reading your posts,
Ecclesiastes 12
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
I agree, as I was going through these posts thought of these verses, before I read this post!
1 Corinthians 15
There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body..And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made.a quickening spirit..Howbeit that.was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual..The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is.the Lord from heaven. As is.the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is.the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly...
The word of God is sown in a natural body and raised in a spiritual body. We are the natural body that the seed is sown in, but when it is raised by the spirit of God we then walk in the spirit, being a temple not made at the hand of man, but by the hand of God we then become a spiritual body bearing the image of the heavenly, which is the image of God through Christ in our lives.
If we keep a seed in a dark cupboard it won't grow, it needs to be planted in soft soil, and it needs the sun and the rain for it to grow. We need to be of soft earth for the seed to be planted deep. This is the only time a man is involved. At the time of planting, these are God's people sharing the word of God. Once in the right conditions the seed grows without any interference from man. Once the seed is planted, we must then be enlightened by the light shining into our hearts for us receive the word of God for cleansing and refreshing to be raised with Christ. If we stay in the dark, we won't grow in God.
The resurrection begins here and now, not when we die.
Colossians 3
If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Ephesians 2
And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus
If we are raised with Christ, then God will be our focus, and the wants of the flesh and the world will be dying and our hearts will be refreshed and cleansed by the spirit daily, putting our old man to death, watering the seed and as the tree grows the fruits appear. All this is done by the hand of God. The hand of man can't touch the things of God, as he corrupts his word. God is a living God, and he feeds us fresh every day. He tends to us, cuts us back and feeds us so that we become strong and healthy in the ways of God.
Without God, were dead men in the flesh walking after our own lusts, with God were dead to the flesh and walking in the spirit with God.
We have a choice, as Joshua said choose you this day whom you serve, I choose the lord my God andi follow his holy son Jesus Christ and the way is narrow and we are tried with fire but worth it, and God strengthens us! A potter can't use a pot until it has been through the kiln. Like us, we are strengthened by going through the fiery trials, and as we suffer and deny the temptations of Satan, God strengthens us to overcome. Jesus said have no fear, for I have overcome the world, he came by example and showed us the perfect way!
I'm enjoying reading your posts,
Ecclesiastes 12
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Hi Marhig, great post! :thumb:
As for what I highlighted in bold red that is not actually what the "rapture" believers say, but rather, it is much like Enoch in that they believe that they will be transformed, but "in the air", (on the way up, while being "caught up"). So it is not literal flesh entering into heaven or inheriting the kingdom of the heavens but rather a sort of final transformation "on the way up" when the trumpet blows. There is really nothing wrong with believing these things because that is pretty much what Paul says; he clearly speaks of being changed, (transformed), but he does not say anything about physical bodies actually going up into the air as some also believe. What is most important is to actually believe the scripture and let the Master reveal things along the way. Those faithful unto the End will be delivered and come to a full and correct understanding. The problem enters in when all that Paul says about the subject is not included in the doctrine. 2 Cor 12:1-4 is the most glaring example of this but there are other passages also; he speaks in these terms in manifold places, which generally go unrecognized for what they are. We have a good example of this erroneous thinking right here in this thread even though the one who posted it seems to now deny it. They will take passages such as the following and make a doctrine from it, (physical bodily resurrection), while excluding other things which Paul also says about the same subject:
See what I mean? Rosenritter sees the "catching away" in the above passage as a literal physical bodily resurrection even though now has stated that no one in this thread has said any such thing, and then turns, and with such politeness kindly asks, "Is it fair to say that Paul would have had a proper understanding of Christ and the resurrection?", implying that Rosenritter's interpretation of Paul is Paul's view and I therefore, according to Rosenritter, do not know whereof I speak because I disagree with Paul and Rosenritter. The reality is that Rosenritter forces Rosenritter's view upon Paul and creates Rosenritter's own circular logic to reinforce Rosenritter's view, while ignoring other critical things that Paul says throughout his writings, and then goes on to accuse me of circular reasoning.
Rosenritter then further explains so that there be no mistaking it:
Yet those that have fallen asleep in Messiah are also referenced in 1 Thessalonians 4 which Rosenritter previously quoted. Rosenritter does not understand the commandments of Messiah, (or Paul), which pertain to cutting off sin among our members. That part always gets ignored by the natural man. Those "unruly members" are fellow members of our own households and we are to mortify them as Yeshua and Paul both teach, "Mortify your members which are upon the land", (every man has his land; both the adamah-soil of the heart and the erets-outer-bounds-commons-profane of the temple, which commons-profane area is "the flesh"), "Mortify the deeds of the body", and "If your right eye offends you, pluck it out and cast it from you", and so on and so on; and when the Absolute Master comes He will bring with Him those whom you have been forced to put to sleep. It is an allegory but no doubt comes to pass in the End, (for those who overcome), and so shall you ever be with the Master. For the people of Elohim, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Master; but as for the unruly members of your "household", you are to cut them off and put them to sleep. The following speaks of the same:
Matthew 10:34-39
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to sever a man from his father, and the daughter from her mother, and the daughter in law from her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And him not taking up his stake and following after me is not worthy of me.
39 He that finds his soul shall destroy her: and he that destroys his soul for my sake shall find her.
These are not our literal physical mothers and fathers, (which we are still commanded to honor and respect), but rather an allegory for cutting off sin from our own "members" of our own households; every one entering into Messiah has a house that must be divided because there is evil in our members like tares growing up in our fields. We all have an old "father the devil" and now we have our heavenly Father, an old "mother of harlots" and now our mother Yerushalaim of above; an old "son of perdition" and now a son of Elohim to come, a "daughter of Babylon" and a "daughter of Yerushalaim", it is all given in parables because the kingdom of Elohim is within you and you are therefore the dominion, (and therefore we wrestle not against flesh and blood). Therefore we are to "cleave away" from the old man, the old father the devil, the old mother of harlots, etc., etc., and adhere ourselves to our heavenly Father and His Word. This may not seem on-topic but it is because that is the allegory Paul is referencing when he speaks of those who sleep in Messiah, and that is also why he says, "Otherwise why immerse for the dead?" The physical minded take great issue with this because they imagine immersion as literal water immersion and argue over whether we should immerse for the literal physically dead or not, (lol). It speaks not of that but rather the washing of water into the Word. This allegory is in the sense of bathing in the clean Water of the Word. Bathing and immersing concern the body in both the literal physical and the supernal sense. But if you have cut off the unruly "members" of your household, and yet you "bathe" in the water of the Word, then you indeed immerse for the dead because your unruly members have been put to sleep in Messiah. Thus all of this talk about literal physical people being cast into a literal lake of fiery torment for all eternity is ridiculous because it was made for "your father the devil" and his messengers; your mother of harlots, your daughter of Babylon, your son of perdition, and so on and so on. And when that vessel goes into destruction time will be no more for you; for your seventh trumpet will have blown, and you will know as you are known, as if face to face, not through a dim glass or in shadows, shades, and types. See also, The Eunuch Dream.
Rosenritter
New member
When you refuse to answer short basic questions, and throw up massive walls of text that answer nothing in defense, jump to conclusions and go spinning off on unrelated tangents without waiting for confirmation or answers, it becomes impossible to have any sort of meaningful dialogue.
May I remind you that you are completely off topic? If you would answer questions and wait for responses for what you ask before tilting at windmills it might not be so bad, but you are burying the subject. Surely you could start a "We believe that there is no resurrection of the dead to life" thread and you'd be at home there talking between the two of you. Far be it for me to interfere then.
Because otherwise what is the point? It's obvious that you're not trying to be persuasive, otherwise you would answer the questions.
May I remind you that you are completely off topic? If you would answer questions and wait for responses for what you ask before tilting at windmills it might not be so bad, but you are burying the subject. Surely you could start a "We believe that there is no resurrection of the dead to life" thread and you'd be at home there talking between the two of you. Far be it for me to interfere then.
Because otherwise what is the point? It's obvious that you're not trying to be persuasive, otherwise you would answer the questions.
marhig
Well-known member
I thought you said that we are resurrected after death, maybe I read you wrong? If you don't mind me asking, what's your beliefs in the resurrection, thanks.
marhig
Well-known member
Hi Marhig, great post! :thumb:
As for what I highlighted in bold red that is not actually what the "rapture" believers say, but rather, it is much like Enoch in that they believe that they will be transformed, but "in the air", (on the way up, while being "caught up"). So it is not literal flesh entering into heaven or inheriting the kingdom of the heavens but rather a sort of final transformation "on the way up" when the trumpet blows. There is really nothing wrong with believing these things because that is pretty much what Paul says; he clearly speaks of being changed, (transformed), but he does not say anything about physical bodies actually going up into the air as some also believe. What is most important is to actually believe the scripture and let the Master reveal things along the way. Those faithful unto the End will be delivered and come to a full and correct understanding. The problem enters in when all that Paul says about the subject is not included in the doctrine. 2 Cor 12:1-4 is the most glaring example of this but there are other passages also; he speaks in these terms in manifold places, which generally go unrecognized for what they are. We have a good example of this erroneous thinking right here in this thread even though the one who posted it seems to now deny it. They will take passages such as the following and make a doctrine from it, (physical bodily resurrection), while excluding other things which Paul also says about the same subject:
See what I mean? Rosenritter sees the "catching away" in the above passage as a literal physical bodily resurrection even though now has stated that no one in this thread has said any such thing, and then turns, and with such politeness kindly asks, "Is it fair to say that Paul would have had a proper understanding of Christ and the resurrection?", implying that Rosenritter's interpretation of Paul is Paul's view and I therefore, according to Rosenritter, do not know whereof I speak because I disagree with Paul and Rosenritter. The reality is that Rosenritter forces Rosenritter's view upon Paul and creates Rosenritter's own circular logic to reinforce Rosenritter's view, while ignoring other critical things that Paul says throughout his writings, and then goes on to accuse me of circular reasoning.
Rosenritter then further explains so that there be no mistaking it:
Yet those that have fallen asleep in Messiah are also referenced in 1 Thessalonians 4 which Rosenritter previously quoted. Rosenritter does not understand the commandments of Messiah, (or Paul), which pertain to cutting off sin among our members. That part always gets ignored by the natural man. Those "unruly members" are fellow members of our own households and we are to mortify them as Yeshua and Paul both teach, "Mortify your members which are upon the land", (every man has his land; both the adamah-soil of the heart and the erets-outer-bounds-commons-profane of the temple, which commons-profane area is "the flesh"), "Mortify the deeds of the body", and "If your right eye offends you, pluck it out and cast it from you", and so on and so on; and when the Absolute Master comes He will bring with Him those whom you have been forced to put to sleep. It is an allegory but no doubt comes to pass in the End, (for those who overcome), and so shall you ever be with the Master. For the people of Elohim, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Master; but as for the unruly members of your "household", you are to cut them off and put them to sleep. The following speaks of the same:
Matthew 10:34-39
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to sever a man from his father, and the daughter from her mother, and the daughter in law from her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And him not taking up his stake and following after me is not worthy of me.
39 He that finds his soul shall destroy her: and he that destroys his soul for my sake shall find her.
These are not our literal physical mothers and fathers, (which we are still commanded to honor and respect), but rather an allegory for cutting off sin from our own "members" of our own households; every one entering into Messiah has a house that must be divided because there is evil in our members like tares growing up in our fields. We all have an old "father the devil" and now we have our heavenly Father, an old "mother of harlots" and now our mother Yerushalaim of above; an old "son of perdition" and now a son of Elohim to come, a "daughter of Babylon" and a "daughter of Yerushalaim", it is all given in parables because the kingdom of Elohim is within you and you are therefore the dominion, (and therefore we wrestle not against flesh and blood). Therefore we are to "cleave away" from the old man, the old father the devil, the old mother of harlots, etc., etc., and adhere ourselves to our heavenly Father and His Word. This may not seem on-topic but it is because that is the allegory Paul is referencing when he speaks of those who sleep in Messiah, and that is also why he says, "Otherwise why immerse for the dead?" The physical minded take great issue with this because they imagine immersion as literal water immersion and argue over whether we should immerse for the literal physically dead or not, (lol). It speaks not of that but rather the washing of water into the Word. This allegory is in the sense of bathing in the clean Water of the Word. Bathing and immersing concern the body in both the literal physical and the supernal sense. But if you have cut off the unruly "members" of your household, and yet you "bathe" in the water of the Word, then you indeed immerse for the dead because your unruly members have been put to sleep in Messiah. Thus all of this talk about literal physical people being cast into a literal lake of fiery torment for all eternity is ridiculous because it was made for "your father the devil" and his messengers; your mother of harlots, your daughter of Babylon, your son of perdition, and so on and so on. And when that vessel goes into destruction time will be no more for you; for your seventh trumpet will have blown, and you will know as you are known, as if face to face, not through a dim glass or in shadows, shades, and types. See also, The Eunuch Dream.
Ok thanks for explaining that, I wondered what people meant by the rapture, I believe that it's spiritual, and that it happened in that generation, as Jesus said it would, and that it's happened in every generation since.
I see it as also happening in the here and now, Gods people seeing clearly in the light through Christ, being caught up in the air with him, we are lifted to a higher level of understanding and we are given the understanding to know the things of God. And to understand others who speak the things of God in wisdom.
I believe we can be asleep, and we're not seeing the things of God clearly, sometimes it's not our time to know, everything is revealed is in Gods time, only God knows when we are ready to receive understanding, and sometimes we are carried away being fleshly and worldly focused with an uncircumcised heart, and those circumcised of the heart are those who can see and are turning from sin. And it's not their natural flesh thats been cut away, but their fleshly nature. I remember seeing that naturally circumcision is of your foreskin, and spiritually the circumcision of the heart takes away the foreskin which is the veil of the flesh that covers our heart, it takes away our before skin, which is our old life, and we are then living through Christ by the will of God. And we will love all, whether they are awake, asleep or seen as having no hope, because through Gods love and the life of Christ, there's hope for everyone.
I sat on a mountain one day, and there was a town below. And I thought that when i was in the town, I only had a limited view because I was down low and I could only see what's in front of me. But when I went up higher, I could see further, and I could see the whole picture clearer. And I saw this in God, that when we are lifted up, we are at a higher level of understanding than those who are in the world, and that God shows us his ways more clearly.
I believe that paul was a powerhouse in God, and that he preached the gospel of Christ.
I agree with you, and there is hidden wisdom right through the Bible, and the more that we turn from our sins and the more we deny ourselves following Jesus and turn to God, the more God opens our understanding. The way of Jesus is so simple.
I got to one point in your post, And i thought of the verses about looking through a glass darkly. Then I saw that you quoted them at the end of your post
God doesn't want us to sit behind the veil being covered in darkness, he wants the veil lifted and for us walk in the light.
Rosenritter
New member
Is it also not written that he spoke plainly to his disciples? No, it does not say all things are in parable. Check the wording please?And I seem to remember you insinuating that I am delusional among your many other politely worded derogatory comments. I only feel led to speak of these things on certain occasions, and do not often do so; but when someone insinuates that I am delusional I tend to pile it on so that they will harden, (and their appointed times will come quicker though I obviously have no control over that). The point being here that you did not choose me, I chose you, and only because I know there is someone else here that probably understands the things I have spoken about. I already told you from the scripture: to those that are without all things are done in parables. But apparently you do not believe those words of the Master either.
Rosenritter
New member
One cannot be resurrected before one dies. That should go without saying. Yet Paul reminds the Corinthians if this - and says this death is just as Adam died and this resurrection as Christ was raised. When Christ was raised they put their hands in his side, felt the marks in his hands, he ate food among them to prove that he was substantial and not a ghost.
We are told that Christ will return with the sound of a trumpet and he shall be seen by all. His saints will then be raised and meet him in the air, and then those of his saints still alive shall be changed and also meet them. Then Jesus touches down, destroys the armies, and the Kingdom of God is established on earth.
The rest of the dead live not again until a thousand years later, when they are raised and the devil is also cast down to judgment. There are no more resurrections from henceforth. Those that enter into life enter into life eternal. Those that are slain shall never rise again and their bodies are permanently burned to ashes.
All these things are written.
Acts 24:14-15 KJV
But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: [15] And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
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Hi Marhig, great post! :thumb:
As for what I highlighted in bold red that is not actually what the "rapture" believers say, but rather, it is much like Enoch in that they believe that they will be transformed, but "in the air", (on the way up, while being "caught up"). So it is not literal flesh entering into heaven or inheriting the kingdom of the heavens but rather a sort of final transformation "on the way up" when the trumpet blows. There is really nothing wrong with believing these things because that is pretty much what Paul says; he clearly speaks of being changed, (transformed), but he does not say anything about physical bodies actually going up into the air as some also believe. What is most important is to actually believe the scripture and let the Master reveal things along the way. Those faithful unto the End will be delivered and come to a full and correct understanding. The problem enters in when all that Paul says about the subject is not included in the doctrine. 2 Cor 12:1-4 is the most glaring example of this but there are other passages also; he speaks in these terms in manifold places, which generally go unrecognized for what they are. We have a good example of this erroneous thinking right here in this thread even though the one who posted it seems to now deny it. They will take passages such as the following and make a doctrine from it, (physical bodily resurrection), while excluding other things which Paul also says about the same subject:
See what I mean? Rosenritter sees the "catching away" in the above passage as a literal physical bodily resurrection even though now has stated that no one in this thread has said any such thing, and then turns, and with such politeness kindly asks, "Is it fair to say that Paul would have had a proper understanding of Christ and the resurrection?", implying that Rosenritter's interpretation of Paul is Paul's view and I therefore, according to Rosenritter, do not know whereof I speak because I disagree with Paul and Rosenritter. The reality is that Rosenritter forces Rosenritter's view upon Paul and creates Rosenritter's own circular logic to reinforce Rosenritter's view, while ignoring other critical things that Paul says throughout his writings, and then goes on to accuse me of circular reasoning.
Rosenritter then further explains so that there be no mistaking it:
Yet those that have fallen asleep in Messiah are also referenced in 1 Thessalonians 4 which Rosenritter previously quoted. Rosenritter does not understand the commandments of Messiah, (or Paul), which pertain to cutting off sin among our members. That part always gets ignored by the natural man. Those "unruly members" are fellow members of our own households and we are to mortify them as Yeshua and Paul both teach, "Mortify your members which are upon the land", (every man has his land; both the adamah-soil of the heart and the erets-outer-bounds-commons-profane of the temple, which commons-profane area is "the flesh"), "Mortify the deeds of the body", and "If your right eye offends you, pluck it out and cast it from you", and so on and so on; and when the Absolute Master comes He will bring with Him those whom you have been forced to put to sleep. It is an allegory but no doubt comes to pass in the End, (for those who overcome), and so shall you ever be with the Master. For the people of Elohim, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Master; but as for the unruly members of your "household", you are to cut them off and put them to sleep. The following speaks of the same:
Matthew 10:34-39
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to sever a man from his father, and the daughter from her mother, and the daughter in law from her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And him not taking up his stake and following after me is not worthy of me.
39 He that finds his soul shall destroy her: and he that destroys his soul for my sake shall find her.
These are not our literal physical mothers and fathers, (which we are still commanded to honor and respect), but rather an allegory for cutting off sin from our own "members" of our own households; every one entering into Messiah has a house that must be divided because there is evil in our members like tares growing up in our fields. We all have an old "father the devil" and now we have our heavenly Father, an old "mother of harlots" and now our mother Yerushalaim of above; an old "son of perdition" and now a son of Elohim to come, a "daughter of Babylon" and a "daughter of Yerushalaim", it is all given in parables because the kingdom of Elohim is within you and you are therefore the dominion, (and therefore we wrestle not against flesh and blood). Therefore we are to "cleave away" from the old man, the old father the devil, the old mother of harlots, etc., etc., and adhere ourselves to our heavenly Father and His Word. This may not seem on-topic but it is because that is the allegory Paul is referencing when he speaks of those who sleep in Messiah, and that is also why he says, "Otherwise why immerse for the dead?" The physical minded take great issue with this because they imagine immersion as literal water immersion and argue over whether we should immerse for the literal physically dead or not, (lol). It speaks not of that but rather the washing of water into the Word. This allegory is in the sense of bathing in the clean Water of the Word. Bathing and immersing concern the body in both the literal physical and the supernal sense. But if you have cut off the unruly "members" of your household, and yet you "bathe" in the water of the Word, then you indeed immerse for the dead because your unruly members have been put to sleep in Messiah. Thus all of this talk about literal physical people being cast into a literal lake of fiery torment for all eternity is ridiculous because it was made for "your father the devil" and his messengers; your mother of harlots, your daughter of Babylon, your son of perdition, and so on and so on. And when that vessel goes into destruction time will be no more for you; for your seventh trumpet will have blown, and you will know as you are known, as if face to face, not through a dim glass or in shadows, shades, and types. See also, The Eunuch Dream.
Do you get paid by the word? :chuckle:
WonderfulLordJesus
New member
The truth is, and I've provided the clear verses, there is hell, and it's a place of torment. The Bible isn't at all ambiguous about this, the only way clear scripture can be explained away is to, one way or another, claim the Bible doesn't mean what it says.
Eternal punishment is something I don't know if anybody can get a handle on, difficulties people have with this understandable, but it's a case of the word of God being plain, and people believing error believing what they want to believe. You see this same thing with the rapture and the apocalypse. I have actually run into some people who claim Christianity and will admit they don't want the Lord Jesus to return anytime soon, as they want their children to grow up and have a normal life, get married, want grandchildren, etc. What is their theology? Preterism, Amillennialism, anything that denies indications we are approaching the apocalypse. They have exchanged truth for the lie they wish to believe, for their own selfish, prejudicial reasons. Often these same people are under the sway of cult false prophets, the doctrines of men. I have gotten to the bottom of this with a number of people, who finally will admit they don't want to believe there's a hell, don't want to believe there's an apocalypse, etc, because it doesn't serve their private carnal interests and thinking, to the point they must replace truth with private interpretations. But the bottom line is what you want to believe doesn't change the truth one bit, is even futile, is wasted thought, time and energy, to pursue fantasy theology of no nexus with reality, no nexus with God's truth. You're simply wrong, what you believe in vain.
Again, the verses below you can only refute by saying the Bible doesn't mean what it says, allegorize them away, relegate plain and simple details to being parabolic, accuse the Lord Jesus of using a very bad example that fosters false doctrine (by the way, with Lazarus and the rich man, there's zero reason to believe it's not a true account the Lord is relating, in some detail), whatever, but all you're really stating is that you don't believe scripture, that you don't believe God.
The elephant in the room is what relationship with the Holy Spirit is allowing a failure to understand scripture and be led into its truth, if, especially you cult people, are claiming to be authentic, born again Christians? This doesn't make any sense. Generations of the Christian faithful, including preeminent theologians, of spotless reputations, attest to hell that is the place of torment in scripture, for a couple thousand years the preponderance of fundamentalist Christians don't agree with your conclusions that contradict scripture. None of us have the Holy Spirit, then? You have some special revelation from the Lord, such that He has revealed to you, "Oops! Bad example. And shouldn't have said that, either!" You know something? I resoundingly think not. I also wonder where the Lord stands with people who refute His warnings and mislead others into the lie they need not be concerned about hell, what a person's position is who helped facilitate the damnation of their fellow man, who believed the lie and ignored the warnings.
The verses, for you to again try to twist the truth out of, that scripture doesn't mean what it clearly says:
Matthew 25
41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels...
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Mark 9
42 But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea.
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched ---
44 where 'Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.'
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched ---
46 where 'Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.'
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire ---
48 where 'Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.'
Revelation 14
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
Revalation 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Luke 16
19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.
20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,
21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,
28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'
29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'
30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "
Eternal punishment is something I don't know if anybody can get a handle on, difficulties people have with this understandable, but it's a case of the word of God being plain, and people believing error believing what they want to believe. You see this same thing with the rapture and the apocalypse. I have actually run into some people who claim Christianity and will admit they don't want the Lord Jesus to return anytime soon, as they want their children to grow up and have a normal life, get married, want grandchildren, etc. What is their theology? Preterism, Amillennialism, anything that denies indications we are approaching the apocalypse. They have exchanged truth for the lie they wish to believe, for their own selfish, prejudicial reasons. Often these same people are under the sway of cult false prophets, the doctrines of men. I have gotten to the bottom of this with a number of people, who finally will admit they don't want to believe there's a hell, don't want to believe there's an apocalypse, etc, because it doesn't serve their private carnal interests and thinking, to the point they must replace truth with private interpretations. But the bottom line is what you want to believe doesn't change the truth one bit, is even futile, is wasted thought, time and energy, to pursue fantasy theology of no nexus with reality, no nexus with God's truth. You're simply wrong, what you believe in vain.
Again, the verses below you can only refute by saying the Bible doesn't mean what it says, allegorize them away, relegate plain and simple details to being parabolic, accuse the Lord Jesus of using a very bad example that fosters false doctrine (by the way, with Lazarus and the rich man, there's zero reason to believe it's not a true account the Lord is relating, in some detail), whatever, but all you're really stating is that you don't believe scripture, that you don't believe God.
The elephant in the room is what relationship with the Holy Spirit is allowing a failure to understand scripture and be led into its truth, if, especially you cult people, are claiming to be authentic, born again Christians? This doesn't make any sense. Generations of the Christian faithful, including preeminent theologians, of spotless reputations, attest to hell that is the place of torment in scripture, for a couple thousand years the preponderance of fundamentalist Christians don't agree with your conclusions that contradict scripture. None of us have the Holy Spirit, then? You have some special revelation from the Lord, such that He has revealed to you, "Oops! Bad example. And shouldn't have said that, either!" You know something? I resoundingly think not. I also wonder where the Lord stands with people who refute His warnings and mislead others into the lie they need not be concerned about hell, what a person's position is who helped facilitate the damnation of their fellow man, who believed the lie and ignored the warnings.
The verses, for you to again try to twist the truth out of, that scripture doesn't mean what it clearly says:
Matthew 25
41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels...
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Mark 9
42 But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea.
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched ---
44 where 'Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.'
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched ---
46 where 'Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.'
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire ---
48 where 'Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.'
Revelation 14
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
Revalation 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Luke 16
19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.
20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,
21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,
28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'
29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'
30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "
Rosenritter
New member
Good evening Wonderful,
I understand that you have entered the thread a little late, and it would be terribly onerous to read through all two years of the previous conversation. I am not being condescending when I say this. I didn't read through everything from the start either. But the reason you aren't getting much of a reaction right now is because everything you are claiming right now has already been discussed in triplicate, and those entering with your initial assertions were not able to give consistent explanations.
I would be happy to discuss any and everything here with you, but it needs to be in an orderly fashion. Certainly not an "all at once" fashion that descends into an exchange of shotgun blasts. I will try to help by responding to one section of the above. I could have picked any section, but I am guessing at what is important to you at the moment. Now, you said that there "Lazarus and the rich man" has "zero reason to believe it is not a true account"....
Here's a stack of reasons:
1) Jesus spoke in parables when he spoke to the multitude, and without a parable he spake to them not (it is written). A multitude was present when Jesus told the story of "Lazarus and the rich man"
2) The story of "Lazarus and the rich man" was preceded by two other parables.
3) Most bible commentaries acknowledge that "Lazarus and the rich man" was a parable, not a true account.
4) Parables are, by definition, not true accounts, and many other parables also use fictional settings.
5) Lazarus and the rich man invokes a fictional setting that draws on Gentile mythology. The Jewish rich man finds himself in the Gentile hell, while the Gentile is received in the arms of Abraham. Did you notice that the "hell" in the parable is called "Hades" rather than the word used for hell-fire, that is, gehenna?
6) Many other places in the inspired scripture tell us that the dead are simply dead, without life, feeling, love, hatred, envy, free from pain and worries and concerns, that the rich and the poor and servant and master similar are alike, that the dead do not even know that they are dead. If you believe in the whole inspiration of scripture (as Jesus himself affirmed) then Luke 16 has no other interpretation as a parable with a fictional backdrop.
7) I am aware of at least two parables in which inanimate objects have voices and speak to each other. Do you have reason to believe that these are "zero chance that they are not true accounts" as well?
8) If this were a "real account" doctrinal difficulties would arise as apparently the path to salvation is merely "receiving bad things in your lifetime" and the way to hell is "having received good things." Or in other words, nothing to do with accepting Christ or repentance and everything about an inverse prosperity gospel.
9) And aside from the above, even if "Lazarus and the Rich Man" were a true story, it is not an account of the Judgment and it certainly has not happened at the end of the world.
You said there were zero reasons. I have just given you nine, and that is even aside from the positive arguments that the Bible clearly spells out that the wages of sin is death, that their fate is utter destruction, that they shall burn up and be no more, and that eternal life is only reserved for the righteous that accept life in Christ.
So I would venture to say that you may not be understanding the parable correctly. We can discuss Luke 16 more as you like, or anything else that is on your mind. Please feel free to choose, but for the sake of discussion, please focus on one thing at a time as much as possible.
marhig
Well-known member
Thank you for explaining what you believe, I see it a bit differently.
Jesus said that he is the resurrection
John 11
I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:”
I believe that we are dead without God, but once we receive the holy spirit we are then quickened and alive in God and we are then raised with Christ and are raised from death into life. We should then be dead to the ways of flesh, being led by the spirit walk in newness of life, and we should be turning away from our fleshly lusts, sin and the things of this world.
Colossians 2
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses
Colossians 3
If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Ephesians 2
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath raised.us up together, and made.us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus
Romans 8
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
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According to the Bible, the wages of sin is death. Not eternal life in hell being tormented alive forever. Let go of the traditions of men and accept what the Bible says.
I just want to point out that I HAVE read every post in this thread from the beginning and I HAVE seen every objection to the truth many times in this thread. Mister Wonderful has not brought up anything new or earth shattering to the truth of the Bible which is eternal life ONLY in Christ. Not in hell.
WonderfulLordJesus
New member
Those of you denying the reality of hell being a place of torment in scripture refute clear statements and doctrines plainly and strongly taught. Also, you're the bedfellows of Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Armstrongites and Christadelphians, in bed with cults that teach the doctrines of men, doctrines of false prophets. You're parroting their false prophets. That's all. A couple millennia of fundamental, Bible believing Christendom disagrees with you, these invented doctrines of soul sleep and annihilation.
It's no skin off the rear of anybody of scripture truth the lies you believe. You don't believe, then I know I don't care, nothing I can do about that, nor should. We all answer to God for our belief, or unbelief. The only thing I tire of is all the sneaky error and deception, all the carnal and philosophical blather.
You, who don't believe clear scripture of the Bible, would better simply say, "I don't believe that." Spare yourself the debate nobody of the truth is throwing the truth away over, ever, in this matter or the errors of all the cultic people that refute scripture, who don't have much of one or no congregation, except message boards. All you're doing is making for a lot of trashed-up threads, a lot of foolish disputing, of no nexus with clear truths of God found in scripture.
You cult people, be a man of backbone, for once, and admit what you are, instead of slinking around, ashamed to name your group or its false prophet. Admit you're an Adventist, that you believe E.G. White over scripture. Or admit you believe Herbert Armstrong, not Christ. Admit you're a Jehovah's Witness or Christadephian. Or simply admit everything you've learned you think is sound doctrine you got from some whackjob on YouTube, or you think you're the Lone Ranger of truth, the only one with the Holy Spirit the past couple thousand years, or whatever. Because it's sure the many generations of true Christians who believe the Bible, alone, have not come to the same conclusions as you, and God is no respecter of persons that you have some special Holy Spirit. You're not special. It's as simple as that. Your isolation in false doctrine is evidence, as a matter of fact, you're not of the Spirit, period.
2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.
2 Timothy 4
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
It's no skin off the rear of anybody of scripture truth the lies you believe. You don't believe, then I know I don't care, nothing I can do about that, nor should. We all answer to God for our belief, or unbelief. The only thing I tire of is all the sneaky error and deception, all the carnal and philosophical blather.
You, who don't believe clear scripture of the Bible, would better simply say, "I don't believe that." Spare yourself the debate nobody of the truth is throwing the truth away over, ever, in this matter or the errors of all the cultic people that refute scripture, who don't have much of one or no congregation, except message boards. All you're doing is making for a lot of trashed-up threads, a lot of foolish disputing, of no nexus with clear truths of God found in scripture.
You cult people, be a man of backbone, for once, and admit what you are, instead of slinking around, ashamed to name your group or its false prophet. Admit you're an Adventist, that you believe E.G. White over scripture. Or admit you believe Herbert Armstrong, not Christ. Admit you're a Jehovah's Witness or Christadephian. Or simply admit everything you've learned you think is sound doctrine you got from some whackjob on YouTube, or you think you're the Lone Ranger of truth, the only one with the Holy Spirit the past couple thousand years, or whatever. Because it's sure the many generations of true Christians who believe the Bible, alone, have not come to the same conclusions as you, and God is no respecter of persons that you have some special Holy Spirit. You're not special. It's as simple as that. Your isolation in false doctrine is evidence, as a matter of fact, you're not of the Spirit, period.
2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.
2 Timothy 4
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Thank you for your opinion.
Since you are denying the reality of the destruction of the wicked, as is stated in many places throughout the Bible, you are the bedfellow of Mormons, Muslims, and Adolph Hitler all of which teach of eternal conscious torment in hell. Here is MY backbone, I am a follower of Jesus Christ and I am NOT a JW, I am not part of the SDA Church or any of those other groups you so ignorantly accuse me of being in. Why don't you just grow a backbone and admit that you prefer the doctrine of eternal conscious torment even though there is much more evidence in the Bible that the wicked will be destroyed on the day of Judgment?
As you say, "the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine", since you cannot endure sound doctrine, this scripture has been fulfilled in you. Please notice what the Bible SAYS "For the wages of sin is DEATH, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
I know the truth of it all, (only recently saw the last piece of the puzzle) but you are not ready for it, but here are some pieces.
God is a just God, which means some will not be punished much before they are thrown into the lake of fire and perish completely.
Unless a child has come to faith in Christ and His blood then they will also perish. (but it must be said that young children are a part of their parents)
The period of punishment is before the lake of fire.
Many will live forever after being judged at the last judgment because their names were written in the book of life.(but some punishment beforehand is involved)
These will not have been in the first resurrection because they were not overcomers who reign over the nation in the years of the thousand.
That reigning is the prize of the high calling of God which Paul spoke of.
Relatively few believers ever give their all to God in order to be in the first resurrection.
The text has it that the overcomers are reigning on the earth while the wicked are being punished.
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rosenritter
New member
I am so very glad you led with that passage. Look, I am not going to say that your understanding of "walking in newness of life" is wrong, that we should be turning away from sin and things of this world, but there's something more, way more, way bigger, that you missed. Let's go back to that passage you quoted?
Because the question here is, what did Jesus mean when he said, "I am the resurrection?" Did he mean he was the key to a metaphorical resurrection, or he would literally raise the dead? That same gospel passage answers this for us in black and white.
John 11:22-44 KJV
(22) But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.
(23) Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
(24) Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
(25) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
(26) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
...
(38) Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it.
(39) Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.
(40) Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
(41) Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
(42) And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
(43) And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
(44) And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.
There is no possible way that this passage can be interpreted as metaphorical speech. Lazarus had died. He was dead four days. The funeral was in progress. Jesus said he was the resurrection and the life, that he would raise Lazarus, and he did. Lazarus stepped out of the grave, wrapped in the burial cloths, and (although not quoted above but rather later) for this the Pharisees sought to kill him (Lazarus!)
When Jesus says he is the resurrection and the life, he is speaking about literal resurrection from the dead. Martha knew that all of the dead would rise in the last day, and Jesus did not correct her. Why would he, he has said as much in other passages as well. But this passage should put to rest any question about whether Jesus meant this literally or figuratively,
Please confirm that you understand?