Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Rosenritter]

Those of you denying the reality of hell being a place of torment in scripture refute clear statements and doctrines plainly and strongly taught. Also, you're the bedfellows of Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Armstrongites and Christadelphians, in bed with cults that teach the doctrines of men, doctrines of false prophets. You're parroting their false prophets. That's all. A couple millennia of fundamental, Bible believing Christendom disagrees with you, these invented doctrines of soul sleep and annihilation.

Do you realize that where you have chosen to lie, you have chosen to be bedfellows with the followers of Mohammad, who worship Allah, who has no Son? If you want scriptural proof of Eternal Conscious "Soul Fry" you won't find it in the pages of the Holy Bible, but it is spelled out in undeniable detail within the Koran.

As for charges of "invented" doctrine, Justin Martyr was preaching that the devil, and wicked angels, and men like him would be destroyed by fire at the judgment at the end of the world and be no more, prior to the first "Eternal Conscious Torment" writings we have on record (Athenagoras, Tertullian). Further back still we have the words of Jesus and John the Baptist, that the wicked would "burn up" like chaff and tares gathered after a harvest. Before that we have the words of prophets like Ezekiel, Isaiah, and Malachi. You may discount Justin, but you may not discount John and Jesus.

I have offered to meet you on terms of scripture, but rather than meeting this with open arms this seems to have provoked you into a rage. That is not the sign of the spirit of Christ. Rather I challenge you, come here with scripture only, leave aside your sharp tools of abusive language and personal attacks, and let the pages speak through what the Holy Spirit has spoken through the prophets of old. I do not think you will accept this challenge.

 

[marhig]

I am so very glad you led with that passage. Look, I am not going to say that your understanding of "walking in newness of life" is wrong, that we should be turning away from sin and things of this world, but there's something more, way more, way bigger, that you missed. Let's go back to that passage you quoted?

Because the question here is, what did Jesus mean when he said, "I am the resurrection?" Did he mean he was the key to a metaphorical resurrection, or he would literally raise the dead? That same gospel passage answers this for us in black and white.

John 11:22-44 KJV
(22) But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.
(23) Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
(24) Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
(25) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
(26) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
...
(38) Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it.
(39) Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.
(40) Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
(41) Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
(42) And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
(43) And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
(44) And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.


There is no possible way that this passage can be interpreted as metaphorical speech. Lazarus had died. He was dead four days. The funeral was in progress. Jesus said he was the resurrection and the life, that he would raise Lazarus, and he did. Lazarus stepped out of the grave, wrapped in the burial cloths, and (although not quoted above but rather later) for this the Pharisees sought to kill him (Lazarus!)

When Jesus says he is the resurrection and the life, he is speaking about literal resurrection from the dead. Martha knew that all of the dead would rise in the last day, and Jesus did not correct her. Why would he, he has said as much in other passages as well. But this passage should put to rest any question about whether Jesus meant this literally or figuratively,

Please confirm that you understand?

Thanks for that, but I don't see it like you do, yes, Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead naturally. But when Martha said that she knows that he will rise again at the resurrection at the last day, Jesus did correct her by saying i am the resurrection and the life. So yes he naturally raised Lazarus. But I believe the resurrection is when God raises us up by the holy spirit.

John the Baptist was raised in his lifetime and he had the holy spirit, he was still alive when Jesus said the following

Matthew 11

Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist

What do you think that Paul means when he says we are raised with Christ? Thanks

 

[Rosenritter]

Thanks for that, but I don't see it like you do, yes, Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead naturally. But when Martha said that she knows that he will rise again at the resurrection at the last day, Jesus did correct her by saying i am the resurrection and the life. So yes he naturally raised Lazarus. But I believe the resurrection is when God raises us up by the holy spirit.

John the Baptist was raised in his lifetime and he had the holy spirit, he was still alive when Jesus said the following

Matthew 11

Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist

What do you think that Paul means when he says we are raised with Christ? Thanks

There has not "risen" a greater than John the Baptist does not mean "raised from the dead." There is nothing in that context to suggest anything other than the normal meaning of "arisen on the scene."

Jesus did not say Martha was wrong, and why would he only raise Lazarus from death and no one else? Besides, he HAS said that he will raise everyone on the last day.

John 6:40 KJV
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 5:28-29 KJV
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, [29] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

We have proven that when Jesus says he will raise someone that he meant it for REALS. Lazarus. Dead. Stinketh. Then alive.

So when he and Martha both say the dead shall be raised in the last day, why... Really, why would someone disbelieve that he also meant this for reals? Is this something horrible or against scripture? Help me out here. All the evidence points to for reals.

 

[daqq]

Thank you for explaining what you believe, I see it a bit differently.

Jesus said that he is the resurrection

John 11

I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:”

I believe that we are dead without God, but once we receive the holy spirit we are then quickened and alive in God and we are then raised with Christ and are raised from death into life. We should then be dead to the ways of flesh, being led by the spirit walk in newness of life, and we should be turning away from our fleshly lusts, sin and the things of this world.

Colossians 2

Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses

Colossians 3

If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

Ephesians 2

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath raised.us up together, and made.us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus

Romans 8

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

:thumb:

Thanks for that, but I don't see it like you do, yes, Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead naturally. But when Martha said that she knows that he will rise again at the resurrection at the last day, Jesus did correct her by saying i am the resurrection and the life. So yes he naturally raised Lazarus. But I believe the resurrection is when God raises us up by the holy spirit.

Hi Marhig, here is another statement from Paul, along the same lines, and yet it concerns once again the same things that have already been thoroughly laid out in this thread, even the passage from Mark 9:43-48 which WLJ quoted once again without any recognition of the statements concerning cutting off sin in our own bodily "members" of our own "households", (the right eye that offends, the right hand that offends, the foot that offends, and so on). Paul speaks yet again of the same thing here, that is, cutting off sin in our own members:

Romans 6:8-13 KJV
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

 

[marhig]

:thumb:




Hi Marhig, here is another statement from Paul, along the same lines, and yet it concerns once again the same things that have already been thoroughly laid out in this thread, even the passage from Mark 9:43-48 which WLJ quoted once again without any recognition of the statements concerning cutting off sin in our own bodily "members" of our own "households", (the right eye that offends, the right hand that offends, the foot that offends, and so on). Paul speaks yet again of the same thing here, that is, cutting off sin in our own members:

Romans 6:8-13 KJV
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

That's great!

I believe as you do, and I see the that when Jesus said if your hand offend you cut it off, and if your eye offend you pluck out as to mean we stop doing it. As soon as I go to do wrong and see it i should stop, we should deny our flesh and don't sin. If we carry on wilfully sinning then we are denying God and Christ and Satan enters in and we are cast into hell and we will go from life to death again. Because he will drag us straight back into the lusts of the flesh and the ways of this world again, and we will be like the dog returning to his own vomit and the sow wallowing in the mire.

 

[marhig]

There has not "risen" a greater than John the Baptist does not mean "raised from the dead." There is nothing in that context to suggest anything other than the normal meaning of "arisen on the scene."

Yes your right, John wasn't risen from natural death at that point, how can he have been? He was still alive. John was risen by the spirit.

Why would Paul say about being risen with Christ? This is in our lifetime, not when we die!

I'm sorry but, don't believe as you do, I believe that we are dead to God in our flesh when we don't know him, we are blind, deaf and dumb as are in complete darkness. But once we believe in Jesus and through faith in Christ and the father and follow Jesus and deny ourselves, then God blesses us with the holy spirit and he brings us from death to life and then we are risen with Christ.

A child is formed in the darkness but until it is born and comes into the light it doesn't hear properly or have a voice. Those who are born again are the same, they begin by believing then through faith the spirit starts to work on us in the depths of our hearts, cleaning us and changing us by putting our flesh to death and presenting us alive in the spirit, giving us the eyes to see, the ears to hear and a mouth to speak of the things of God. So that we are raised from the dead, brought from death to life, from darkness to light and we are born again of the spirit and not of the flesh, living by the will of God denying the lusts of the flesh through Jesus Christ.

I believe that through faith and by obeying God that we are then raised with Christ by the living God.

The more we lay down our lives and don't live to please our flesh, then the stronger we become in God

I don't believe like some do, that we lie in graves when we die, waiting for God to raise us up. I believe our flesh goes back to the dust. And the spirit goes God why gave it. As it says in Ecclesiastes 12.

God is a God of the living not the dead, and if we are alive in God, then we are risen from the dead.

 

[daqq]

That's great!

I believe as you do, and I see the that when Jesus said if your hand offend you cut it off, and if your eye offend you pluck out as to mean we stop doing it. As soon as I go to do wrong and see it i should stop, we should deny our flesh and don't sin. If we carry on sinning then we are denying God and Christ and Satan enters in and we are cast into hell and we will go from life to death again. Because he will drag us straight back into the lusts of the flesh and the ways of this world again, and we will be like the dog returning to his own vomit and the sow wallowing in the mire.

All the land of the earth belongs to the Father, as He says, "All the earth is Mine", (and every man is earth-soil-land), so our eyes, hands, feet, etc., all belong to the Father as you surely already know, (especially since we are purchased). But in the allegories, when someone does evil with his or her "members", it is like as if an "evil shepherd" has been allowed to take over the use of that member. Thus in the parables of Yeshua we often read of "little ones", (even Lazarus is a "little one" in the parable if you read the punch line which is now mistakenly cut off into the next chapter, Luke 17:1-2). These little ones represent our innocent members, and therefore, those who abuse them offend not only their own bodies but Elohim, (and he is their Avenger as Paul has forewarned us; for their angels do always behold the face of the Father, as Yeshua has forewarned us). It is really just another allegory concerning "devils" at work in our members and Paul lays this out, (without mentioning devils), in Romans 7, where clearly sin and evil dwells in "the flesh" and in the bodily members. Thus we are admonished to put the "unruly members" of our households to sleep and mortify, (put to death), our members "which are upon the earth", (our own earth or land), and "mortify the deeds of the body". If one does these things no doubt he or she will not have gone through all of the little cities of Yisrael before the Son of Man be come, (for you are the land and the eyes of the Father are always upon it; even from the beginning of the year, unto the end of the year).

Three evil shepherds I cut off in a year; a right eye always wandering off toward unsightly things like a desert nomad wanderer, a right hand always reaching for intoxicating things, and a foot always running swiftly into mischief: and my soul loathed them, and their soul also abhorred me. Then said I, I will not feed you: that which is dying, let die; and that which is to be cut off, let it be cut off; and let the rest eat every one the flesh his neighbor. And broke my league with them and cut them off. And the Most High said to me, Take to yourself the instruments of a foolish shepherd. For behold, I raise up a shepherd in the land who will not visit those that are cut off, neither will seek those that are scattered, nor heal that which is broken, nor feed that which is sound; but he will eat the flesh of the fat ones, and will tear their hoofs in pieces. Woe to the idol shepherd that abandons the flock: the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened. And the Master said, The lamp-light for the inside of the body of the man is the eye; if therefore your eye be single, your whole body shall be full of light: but if your eye be evil, your whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you be darkness, how great is the darkness!

 

[marhig]

All the land of the earth belongs to the Father, as He says, "All the earth is Mine", (and every man is earth-soil-land), so our eyes, hands, feet, etc., all belong to the Father as you surely already know, (especially since we are purchased). But in the allegories, when someone does evil with his or her "members", it is like as if an "evil shepherd" has been allowed to take over the use of that member. Thus in the parables of Yeshua we often read of "little ones", (even Lazarus is a "little one" in the parable if you read the punch line which is now mistakenly cut off into the next chapter, Luke 17:1-2). These little ones represent our innocent members, and therefore, those who abuse them offend not only their own bodies but Elohim, (and he is their Avenger as Paul has forewarned us; for their angels do always behold the face of the Father, as Yeshua has forewarned us). It is really just another allegory concerning "devils" at work in our members and Paul lays this out, (without mentioning devils), in Romans 7, where clearly sin and evil dwells in "the flesh" and in the bodily members. Thus we are admonished to put the "unruly members" of our households to sleep and mortify, (put to death), our members "which are upon the earth", (our own earth or land), and "mortify the deeds of the body". If one does these things no doubt he or she will not have gone through all of the little cities of Yisrael before the Son of Man be come, (for you are the land and the eyes of the Father are always upon it; even from the beginning of the year, unto the end of the year).

Three evil shepherds I cut off in a year; a right eye always wandering off toward unsightly things like a desert nomad wanderer, a right hand always reaching for intoxicating things, and a foot always running swiftly into mischief: and my soul loathed them, and their soul also abhorred me. Then said I, I will not feed you: that which is dying, let die; and that which is to be cut off, let it be cut off; and let the rest eat every one the flesh his neighbor. And broke my league with them and cut them off. And the Most High said to me, Take to yourself the instruments of a foolish shepherd. For behold, I raise up a shepherd in the land who will not visit those that are cut off, neither will seek those that are scattered, nor heal that which is broken, nor feed that which is sound; but he will eat the flesh of the fat ones, and will tear their hoofs in pieces. Woe to the idol shepherd that abandons the flock: the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened. And the Master said, The lamp-light for the inside of the body of the man is the eye; if therefore your eye be single, your whole body shall be full of light: but if your eye be evil, your whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you be darkness, how great is the darkness!

That's great, I truly believe that if we don't stop wilfully sinning then we will be cut off, the wages of sin is death, I believe that this is being spiritually dead, living in the flesh and loving ourselves and putting our own life before God. I don't believe in OSAS. I don't think it's a good thing to carry on living thinking that were going to be ok before God, believing that even if we sin we're saved and that even our future sins are forgiven, it doesn't say that in the Bible. Jesus says that no one is able to pluck us out of the father's hand as that is the truth, but we can turn away from God ourselves by living to please the lusts of our flesh. I believe that when we truly repent, then we are to turn from sin and obey God. And if we have the indwelling spirit he will be guiding us in the ways of God and if we listen and deny ourselves, he will be putting our flesh to death and we will be turning from sin and people will see the fruits of the spirit in our lives.

James 1

Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

 

[Rosenritter]

That's great, I

Daqq and Marhig, all you are doing is resonating with each other, you aren't actually answering the questions. Jesus and Paul preach a literal resurrection of the dead that occurs at a future time, at the last trump, at Christ's literal return.Yes, Paul does sometimes use metaphor, but it is a metaphor that has no meaning without a literal resurrection to compare it to. This same Paul also chastises an audience that did not believe in a literal resurrection of the dead, specifying that we shall all be raised as Christ was raised. Christ was dead for three days and three nights, his side pieced, wrapped in burial clothes. He was raised and seen and handled.

Mat 12:40-42 KJV
(40) For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
(41) The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
(42) The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

Daqq and Marhig, the men of Nineveh and the queen of the South are dead. They cannot "metaphorically" rise by "having love in their hearts" while they are dead. The only way they shall rise up in judgment and condemn it is if they are actually physically raised, at a judgment, at the same time.

When Jesus and Paul and the Bible speak about being raised from the dead, unless it is an obvious metaphor that is denied by the immediate setting, they really mean it. This is a serious thing, without which Paul says we of all men would be "most miserable" if we had hope in this life only.

1Co 15:16-19 KJV
(16) For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
(17) And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
(18) Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
(19) If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

How can Paul's words above make any sense if "resurrected" simply meant lofted to some happy fuzziness before succumbing to actual literal death? He speaks of "if in this life only" ... which, according to you, is already a resurrected life. Paul says that he needs resurrection and that his current life is not sufficient, he says this while writing scripture by the Holy Spirit.

Mat 27:50-53 KJV
(50) Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
(51) And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
(52) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
(53) And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

These saints were raised and did yet die again (or else they would be living witnesses today) but there is yet that promised resurrection of all that ever lived. Address the questions and wait for answers, but if all you want to do is resonate off each other you will topple this thread underneath the weight of self-reassuring words, forming nothing more than a false sense of security from circular affirmation.

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

Matthew 25

41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels...
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Mark 9

42 But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea.
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched ---
44 where 'Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.'
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched ---
46 where 'Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.'
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire ---
48 where 'Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.'

Revelation 14

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Revalation 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Luke 16

19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.
20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,
21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,
28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'
29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'
30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

2 Timothy 4

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Proverbs 3

5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

2 Peter 2

1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed.
3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.

 

[Rosenritter]

Matthew 25

41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels...
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Mark 9

42 But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea.
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched ---
44 where 'Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.'
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched ---
46 where 'Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.'
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire ---
48 where 'Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.'

Revelation 14

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Revalation 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Luke 16

19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.
20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,
21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,
28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'
29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'
30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

2 Timothy 4

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Proverbs 3

5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

2 Peter 2

1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed.
3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.

Can you please explain how any of these passages establish what you wish to prove? Or for that matter, you should also state what it is you wish to prove. Did you not notice that these specific verses contradict what you were saying earlier?

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

Can you please explain how any of these passages establish what you wish to prove? Or for that matter, you should also state what it is you wish to prove. Did you not notice that these specific verses contradict what you were saying earlier?

They contradict not one scintilla of what I said. I realize you don't like the message, so must attack the messenger: "...and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name...", "...And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever...", "...The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."

Look, cop to a reading comprehension problem, or that you don't believe the Bible, whatever, but don't try and drag me into whatever spiritual disease it is that causes you to dispute the word of God I happen to believe, affirmed by a couple millennia of Christian, Spirit-filled scholarship of some great theologians, of unspotted reputations.

The clear word of God, and a long, long line of men of God of truth the past couple thousand years agree with me, including the whole of historic, mainstream Christianity. The cults, with their proven false prophets, agree with you. It's just so absurd, you people who claim the Holy Spirit failed all Christendom to lead into truth, but for you. The folly of that, alone, speaks loudly for itself, is pretty much all she wrote.

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

They contradict not one scintilla of what I said. I realize you don't like the message, so must attack the messenger: "...and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name...", "...And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever...", "...The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."

Look, cop to a reading comprehension problem, or that you don't believe the Bible, whatever, but don't try and drag me into whatever spiritual disease it is that causes you to dispute the word of God I happen to believe, affirmed by a couple millennia of Christian, Spirit-filled scholarship of some great theologians, of unspotted reputations.

The clear word of God, and a long, long line of men of God of truth the past couple thousand years agree with me, including the whole of historic, mainstream Christianity. The cults, with their proven false prophets, agree with you. It's just so absurd, you people who claim the Holy Spirit failed all Christendom to lead into truth, but for you. The folly of that, alone, speaks loudly for itself, is pretty much all she wrote.

Your taking parables that are few in number to contradict literal verses in the old and new testaments that say destroy, extinguish, no more, and so on.


Sent from my iPad using TOL ~Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentary

 

[Timotheos]

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Death? I thought you were against the doctrine that the wages of sin is death.
For your doctrine to hold together, shouldn't Proverbs 14:12 read "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of eternal torment in hell"?

2 Peter 2

1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed.
3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.

Here Peter says EXACTLY what I have been saying, and you QUOTE HIM saying it. The false teachers will be destroyed, their DESTRUCTION does not slumber. If your doctrine is correct, Peter should have written "their eternal torment does not slumber". The false teachers bring SWIFT DESTRUCTION upon themselves, NOT slow eternal torture.

Your doctrine simply does not agree with what the Bible says. The Bible specifically states that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23
Your doctrine of eternal life in hell being tormented alive DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS Romans 6:23 and a multitude of other passages in the Bible.

 

[Rosenritter]

They contradict not one scintilla of what I said. I realize you don't like the message, so must attack the messenger: "...and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name...", "...And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever...", "...The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."

Look, cop to a reading comprehension problem, or that you don't believe the Bible, whatever, but don't try and drag me into whatever spiritual disease it is that causes you to dispute the word of God I happen to believe, affirmed by a couple millennia of Christian, Spirit-filled scholarship of some great theologians, of unspotted reputations.

The clear word of God, and a long, long line of men of God of truth the past couple thousand years agree with me, including the whole of historic, mainstream Christianity. The cults, with their proven false prophets, agree with you. It's just so absurd, you people who claim the Holy Spirit failed all Christendom to lead into truth, but for you. The folly of that, alone, speaks loudly for itself, is pretty much all she wrote.

I haven't said anything against you, at least not yet. Say what it is you intend to prove, then show how what you provide proves it.

 

[Timotheos]

They contradict not one scintilla of what I said. I realize you don't like the message, so must attack the messenger: "...and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name...", "...And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever...", "...The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."

Look, cop to a reading comprehension problem, or that you don't believe the Bible, whatever, but don't try and drag me into whatever spiritual disease it is that causes you to dispute the word of God I happen to believe, affirmed by a couple millennia of Christian, Spirit-filled scholarship of some great theologians, of unspotted reputations.

The clear word of God, and a long, long line of men of God of truth the past couple thousand years agree with me, including the whole of historic, mainstream Christianity. The cults, with their proven false prophets, agree with you. It's just so absurd, you people who claim the Holy Spirit failed all Christendom to lead into truth, but for you. The folly of that, alone, speaks loudly for itself, is pretty much all she wrote.

Why are you so hostile to what the Word of God says?

 

[Lazy afternoon]

a comment-

Notice that the rich man was not dead when he is suffering in the flame and the poor man is alive in Abrahams bosum.

The picture is of a time between the resurrection and the casting into the lake of fire of the second death.

Factor in --

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

LA

 

[Rosenritter]

a comment-

Notice that the rich man was not dead when he is suffering in the flame and the poor man is alive in Abrahams bosum.

The picture is of a time between the resurrection and the casting into the lake of fire of the second death.

Factor in --

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

LA

Notice that he has five brothers. All the symbols Christ uses are clues in scripture. What is the name of the rich man?

 

[patrick jane]

They contradict not one scintilla of what I said. I realize you don't like the message, so must attack the messenger: "...and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name...", "...And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever...", "..

Only those who worship the beast AND his image, AND whoever receives the mark -

 

[Rosenritter]

Only those who worship the beast AND his image, AND whoever receives the mark -

... and even then these people are still alive upon the earth. How do we know this? The dead cannot worship.


Psalms 146:2-4 KJV
(2) While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being.
(3) Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
(4) His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

As for those that perish from torment, we know that they are at rest.

Job 3:16-22 KJV
(16) Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never saw light.
(17) There the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest.
(18) There the prisoners rest together; they hear not the voice of the oppressor.
(19) The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master.
(20) Wherefore is light given to him that is in misery, and life unto the bitter in soul;
(21) Which long for death, but it cometh not; and dig for it more than for hid treasures;
(22) Which rejoice exceedingly, and are glad, when they can find the grave?



At least that's what the inspired scripture says.